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Author Topic: The Great Northern Sea  (Read 3639 times)

ChairmanPoo

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2012, 01:46:15 pm »

... any other sources and/or insights on this guy's conclusions? I'd rather have more info before making a judgement call.
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pisskop

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2012, 01:51:40 pm »

I didn't fully read them but they seems to have the gist down...

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Greenland_and_Antarctica_Ice_Caps_Linked_By_Ocean_Current_999.html

http://environmentaleducationuk.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/climate-change-alert-melting-ice-caps-have-real-on-ocean-currents-and-distant-lands/  (search for 'currents' in borwser)

"The scientists are concerned that a sudden change in wind patterns might send this fresher water south via the Labrador Current into the North Atlantic where it could interfere with the complex “thermohaline” ocean circulation. These currents, which keep the warm Gulf Stream flowing towards Britain and the rest of north-west Europe, flow between the sea surface and the seabed and are controlled by the relative saltiness of seawater.
 
“In the past we know that a sudden change in Atlantic currents has happened because of a relatively sudden release of freshwater into the North Atlantic. We can imagine that it could happen again,” said Benjamin Rabe, of Germany’s Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research in Bremerhaven.
 
“If that amount of freshwater is going to be suddenly released it would influence ocean currents, for instance the thermohaline circulation of the North Atlantic. I think we should definitely look at this further. The thermohaline ocean current has only been monitored for a few years,” he added.
 
Scientists from 17 research institutes in 10 European countries have collaborated as a consortium known as CLAMER in documenting the build-up of fresher water in the Arctic. One of the techniques involves sending salinity gauges down to different depths of the sea from the RV Polarstern ice-breaker, a German research ship."
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Starver

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 02:11:07 pm »

When I heard this on the news, a few weeks back, it was always talking about measurements being taken by ice-breakers...  Leading me to the conclusion that a lot of the ice is being lost because it's being broken off by the ice-breakers conducting the in-depth surveys. ;)

(Well, ok, not seriously... But whatever the wording was, the above comedy of errors just refused to stay out of my mind...)
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Jerick

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2012, 02:34:15 pm »

???  That what I said.  I never mentioned the Sun once.

In any case.  The world is changing, or to quote one of my favorite songs "this is the way the world ends, not with a flash, but a vapor".
What the hell is up with my reading comprehension today?
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Zrk2

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 08:07:21 pm »

I, for one, look forward to Canada's glorious role as sole arbiter of trans-arctic trade and the associated profits reaped by said country. *somethingsomethingPATRIOTISM!*
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miauw62

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 09:24:55 am »

This actually makes me pretty mad.  Its a perfect opportunity for governments to try out some megaprojects like cloud-whitening factories/ships, or a giant satellite to block out the sun periodically, and they just sit on their ass and do nothing as usual.  They are all too corrupt or incompetent to even make an attempt to get anything done.

We has to try!
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pisskop

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 09:36:21 am »

What needs to be done, as much as I am against globalism, is united action.  The UN, or any coalition of nations need to get together and figure it out.  Even if GW is a myth and its just 'natural fluctuation' its still dangereous and causing eratic conditions.
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Levi

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 11:16:47 am »

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RedKing

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 11:46:52 am »

Yeah, we're pretty much boned as a species. Too greedy and short-sighted to either fix our habitat or go find new ones.

Maybe that's the answer to the Fermi Paradox, if most sentient life develops down similar psychological pathways.
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Levi

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 11:51:41 am »

Yeah, we're pretty much boned as a species. Too greedy and short-sighted to either fix our habitat or go find new ones.

Maybe that's the answer to the Fermi Paradox, if most sentient life develops down similar psychological pathways.

Its not all bad.  As long as we can figure out how to upload our brains into computers BEFORE the global cataclysm occurs then its all good.  I'm okay with watching the apocalypse from above as a satellite.

Meh, who am I kidding.  Global food shortages are probably going to happen before we manage that.
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RedKing

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 12:11:47 pm »

Yeah, we're pretty much boned as a species. Too greedy and short-sighted to either fix our habitat or go find new ones.

Maybe that's the answer to the Fermi Paradox, if most sentient life develops down similar psychological pathways.

Its not all bad.  As long as we can figure out how to upload our brains into computers BEFORE the global cataclysm occurs then its all good.  I'm okay with watching the apocalypse from above as a satellite.

Meh, who am I kidding.  Global food shortages are probably going to happen before we manage that.
All the more reason we're laying in a garden and building a chicken coop. We might be stuck eating veggie omelets for the rest of our lives, but we'll still be here.
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Levi

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 12:14:06 pm »

All the more reason we're laying in a garden and building a chicken coop. We might be stuck eating veggie omelets for the rest of our lives, but we'll still be here.

Yeah its a really good idea.  I wish I could do the same, but I'm in an apartment.  Hoping to move somewhere more remote where I can do that when I get enough money together to retire though.  :)
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PTTG??

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 12:44:38 pm »

Yeah, we're pretty much boned as a species. Too greedy and short-sighted to either fix our habitat or go find new ones.

Maybe that's the answer to the Fermi Paradox, if most sentient life develops down similar psychological pathways.

I'm sick of people saying that climate change will kill off humanity. I don't know if it's false flag or just adolecent fantasizing, but there is absolutely no way that climate change- even in extremities so absurd as to make The Day After Tomorrow look like Cosmos, you can't kill off everyone. Face it, we're in this situation because people are really successful, and good at surviving and making use of the world around them.

In the worst plausible case situation, a billion people will starve. Maybe two. Not pretty, not nice. Unprecidented in modern history, though the Black Death came close. But humanity pulled through just fine. The realistic hazards of climate change are more than enough to worry about; we don't need people getting all 2012 mayan alien area 51 genetic nuke engineering on us.

We have more serious things to discuss than action movie premises, however. Such as how to avoid the few million-odd deaths we might expect in the coming century and perhaps even preserve what biodiversity we have left. Consider the following;

Geoengineering

Given the unpredictable and slow nature of atmospheric modification, I propose a different method of repairing the climate- one that I think will be very effective and yet easily modulated.

First, select a near-earth, carbonaceous asteroid. We can filter the candidate asteroids until we find one which is in an easy-to-control orbit, will approach at the correct distance, and is a suitable mass.

We have already successfully landed on asteroids; we would do so again, and this time put the asteroid into a high orbit over earth. This is an experiment which provides a great deal of useful information, including training us how to deflect an asteroid on a very dangerous course.

With our new moon in orbit, it is adjusted until it is in the Earth-Sun Lagrangian point. At this point, it would be very difficult to see without filters and a good telescope. It will be unstable, drifting to one side or the other, but this is fine- if we decide to remove it, it will be easy to steer it into a new orbit which is more stable and doesn't block the sun, a useful position.

Now, we start manufacturing carbon fiber from the material of the asteroid. These are not the super-strong space elevator cables, just simple strands of moderately strong plastic. We make these only a few thousand feet, then spin the asteroid and extend the ribbon-like strands to expand the silhouette of the asteroid, increasing the amount of sunlight blocked. With this, we can decrease the amount of sunlight the earth receives by a very small fraction, but perhaps enough to cancel out the new greenhouse effect somewhat. We can then, at our leisure, filter the Co2 from the atmosphere, meanwhile reeling in the strands to maintain a constant balance.

This shield would not prevent ocean acidification, which is perhaps the most serious effect of excess Co2, but it will modulate extreme weather and prevent temperature-based feedback effects. In fact, if we could artificially cool the planet below the norm, we may reverse temperature-based positive feedbacks (increasing albedo, locking permafrost up).

The important thing to know about this plan is that it is entirely within the realm of modern science; all of the propulsion systems, energy demands, and engineering feats have already been done, and indeed I believe it could be done with effectively off-the-shelf components. It could be quite cheap, compared to the expected costs for ocean levels rising. On the other hand, it won't mitigate all the problems with Co2 emissions, we will need other approaches to permanently remove it. It will also take time- perhaps a decade for slow and inefficient governments to put it into action, and five years for an asteroid to be selected (assuming a viable one comes near), captured, and put into orbit. Another five years for a second launch to install the fiber production equipment and for that to start.

By then, we could very well see the Arctic Ocean ice-free in the summer, meaning that cooling will need to be even more severe to regenerate natural cooling mechanisms.

Assuming we want to block 0.05% of incoming sunlight, the area of the asteroid's silhouette must cover approximately a similar area of earth's surface. Earth has a silhouette of 80,000 sq. km. The fibers would have to be 636 km long, and strong enough to support that weight in microgravity. Not impossible, though perhaps difficult.

If each one was a meter wide, there would need to be ~650,000 strands, so failure of any one strand (which would presumably drift away, become unstable, and either trail in orbit or burn up in earth atmosphere) would be of little concern as long as a new one could be manufactured quickly enough.

Ok, manufacturing 400 sq. km of carbon fiber in zero-g might be difficult, though note that the resources to do so (energy and carbon) are in great supply on a solar-Lagrangian asteroid. If that stuff is 0.25 cm thick (really really really thick for some uses, but let's say it's tough, and that the asteroid isn't pure carbon), it's 1,000,000 cubic meters of carbon, meaning that the asteroid would have to be (assuming we don't want to eat more than half of it so we have some left over for a lifetime of replacement strands) a 160 meter wide sphere.

I have to test how badly this could go wrong. Assuming a worst-case (vertical) entry angle, can this thing reach the ground? Such a thing would be impossible, however. A more plausible but still unlikely failure is it coming in at some shallow angle, giving it plenty of time to burn up.

More importantly, other approaches such as cloud forming/seeding, or other fanciful ocean chemistry modifications, are much harder to predict and control, and often involve distributing far more than 1 million cubic meters of material in the form of areosols and such... and then that stuff's permanently there. The solar shade approach is quite flexible, limited mainly by the mass of the asteroid, which is itself only really limited by the amount of time and energy we want to put into re-orbiting it.
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kaijyuu

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 12:50:42 pm »

* kaijyuu is not going to cry doom and gloom.

A nasty global depression as we finally deal with the fact we can't use non-renewable resources forever? Sure. Death of humanity? Naw.
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Levi

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Re: The Great Northern Sea
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 01:04:46 pm »

I dunno, we aren't really sure what the consequences are of losing the ice caps.  If the oceans start to acidify enough and most of the fish die out, we lose a massive amount of food globally.  Most of the worlds population lives in coastal cities and will lose a major food source that many of them won't be able to replace.  The change in the pH of the ocean could potentially also have a massive effect on weather patterns, effectively killing a lot of our farm crops as well, which just makes the problem that much bigger.

Starving people are more likely to riot and war, which could lead to massive conflicts around the world. 

Humanity won't completely die out, but technological progress could stop and the world might end up being a much harsher place to live.

All because oil companies want to make a little more money.   >:(
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