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[LordBucket]

I don't see why you present destroy the wind turbine as a bad solution. Getting rid of the problem entirely
should be the goal. A violent revolution is one way to do it

Yes, that is a valid solution. It is not the only solution, but it is a solution that is easily understood.

though peaceful reform would obviously be preferable, it certainly doesn't seem like it's going to happen any time soon.

The difficulty here is that "people" tend to have difficulty acting in unison. Peaceful resolution and the complete elimination of wealth, poverty and disparity could be implemented overnight if the majority were capable of acting as a singular whole. For example, if everybody decided to not show up to work tomorrow...that would be an effective assertion of the real power held by "everybody" over the illusory power of money. "The rich" have no real power beyond the fact that people choose to do what they want in exchange for little green pieces of paper. Stop making that choice, and the richest billionaire on the planet has no more financial power than the child starving in africa.

However, it's difficult to coordinate that. It's difficult to get everyone to buy into it. It doesn't work if 80% of people don't show up to work and the other 20% all accept money in exchange for the service of putting on camouflage pants and rounding up the other 80% into forced labor camps. It's a solution that works on paper, but is impractical.

If you want a more practical peaceful solution, then I offer you three:

1) Remove yourself from the system to whatever extent is practical. If you live in a cabin in the woods, grow your own food and generate your own power...there's little reason for you to be adversely affected by what anyone else does with money.

2) Learn the system and work within it in such a way that the effect of money in your life is within your personal comfort zone. For example, if you're a millionaire, you're still affected by money...but the cons may be worth the pros. But it doesn't necessarily need to take that much money to be comfortable. A large portion of most people's income is spent supporting their work habit. Some people pay more taxes than they need to. Many people make bad financial decisions. It's possible to live comfortably on a modest income simply by making good choices.

2) There are high tech solutions that could make the entire situation irrelevant. Obvious example: somebody invent a star trek replicator and the whole problem goes away overnight.

[LordBucket]

"What's your preferred solution"? Some don't have that option. What then?

Birds that fly into wind turbines, whether through ignorance or lack of any other choice...get chopped into pieces.

People who engage in poor financial practices, whether through ignorance or lack of any other choice...suffer financial problems.

*shrug*

It is what it is. If you're too lazy, or too stupid to make good choices, you will suffer the consequences. And...even if you're smart and well intentioned and try your genuine absolute best and work really hard, but make poor choices anyway through no fault of your own...you'll still suffer the consequences. If doesn't matter if those poor choices are destroying yourself with money or destroying yourself by failing to move out of the way of an oncoming car or flying into a wind turbine. Physics is physics. Power is power.

I see no value in whining about it. If you wish to whine and complain and blame your misfortune on others, you don't need my permission.

[Flying Dice]

1) Remove yourself from the system to whatever extent is practical. If you live in a cabin in the woods, grow your own food and generate your own power...there's little reason for you to be adversely affected by what anyone else does with money.

That requires both capital and a fairly broad skillset that most people (including urban poor) don't possess. You need money to buy tools, seeds, equipment, etc.--essentially anything that requires machines to produce. You also need the knowledge and ability to do the dozens of things necessary to survive on your own in the wilderness. You also need to find a section of uninhabited land that isn't a reserve and which can be purchased, unless you think that squatting on someone's land is a good idea. This all requires money, including money to get training in things like agriculture, (possibly) hunting, carpentry, construction, identifying plants both edible and poisonous, identifying venomous animals, etc., all of which costs money unless you want to risk your life on a daily basis figuring it out for yourself. In other words, in the modern world it requires a fairly substantial investment of time and money just to be able to live a hermit-like life away from population centers. So yeah, no dice for most people. Once again you're looking at this from the perspective of a "have", rather than a "have not".

2) Learn the system and work within it in such a way that the effect of money in your life is within your personal comfort zone. For example, if you're a millionaire, you're still affected by money...but the cons may be worth the pros. But it doesn't necessarily need to take that much money to be comfortable. A large portion of most people's income is spent supporting their work habit. Some people pay more taxes than they need to. Many people make bad financial decisions. It's possible to live comfortably on a modest income simply by making good choices.

True--if you start from relatively stable financial conditions. In other words, you were raised in a middle class household, your basic needs were always provided for, you probably went to university and got your degree without an extreme amount of debt. In that sort of situation, then yes, you might be able to get by if you're careful with your money. Unless someone/company shits all over you in passing by making bad investments with your savings. And if you're starting off from a poverty-level household, even one that doesn't have a single parent or substance abuse problems? You'll have to struggle your whole life just to stay above water, unless you turn out to have some extraordinary talent. And at any level beyond super rich, if you fuck up at all, you're gone. So once again it looks like you're approaching this from the perspective of someone who was born into a stable financial situation, who never really had to worry about having food on their plate, who didn't need to worry about not being able to afford postsecondary education, etc.

2) There are high tech solutions that could make the entire situation irrelevant. Obvious example: somebody invent a star trek replicator and the whole problem goes away overnight.

So now you're pulling things out of your ass? We don't need magitek solutions--as it stands, we could feed the entire human race if things were managed efficiently, with the primary concern being feeding people instead of maximizing profits. We have the resources to provide for virtually all of the basic needs of our entire species, but we don't because the people with the power to do so are too busy accumulating wealth for themselves.

And y'know what? If we did get replicators/matter converters/free energy/whatever, it'd probably be snapped up by the people at the top and go the way of the electric tram lines in the US once the auto manufacturers got their claws into them, for the exact same sort of reason. The same reason, incidentally, that we're still so dependent on fossil fuels, the same reason that the financial system is allowed to continue driving over cliffs: because it's profitable, and gathering more wealth is more important to most of the people at the top than human lives are.

"What's your preferred solution"? Some don't have that option. What then?

Birds that fly into wind turbines, whether through ignorance or lack of any other choice...get chopped into pieces.

People who engage in poor financial practices, whether through ignorance or lack of any other choice...suffer financial problems.

*shrug*

It is what it is. If you're too lazy, or too stupid to make good choices, you will suffer the consequences. And...even if you're smart and well intentioned and try your genuine absolute best and work really hard, but make poor choices anyway through no fault of your own...you'll still suffer the consequences. If doesn't matter if those poor choices are destroying yourself with money or destroying yourself by failing to move out of the way of an oncoming car or flying into a wind turbine. Physics is physics. Power is power.

I see no value in whining about it. If you wish to whine and complain and blame your misfortune on others, you don't need my permission.

You're completely ignoring the point. Most people who are crippled by our socio-economic system aren't being harmed because they're making bad decisions, but because the system is rigged in favor of the wealthy. Your attitude towards this is honestly rather disgusting, dismissing most of the human race as lazy and stupid because they didn't have the fortune to be born rich. People like you can keep looking down on everyone else from your golden towers, sneering at the inferior, subhuman morons, but every now and then people manage to scale those walls and throw the powerful to their deaths. Sadly, it is a cyclical model rather than a linear one, but at least we occasionally have the satisfaction of seeing those who abuse their power succumb to their own arrogance.

_{tl;dr: Randians and social darwinists can all go die in fires. Metaphorical ones, of course.}

[LordBucket]

If the game is rigged, then don't play.

What solutions do you offer? Please focus on solutions that individuals can implement for themselves, rather than solutions that only work if others solve your problems for you.

[Leafsnail]

Has anyone ever told you about the concept of teamwork?  That maybe there are some things a group of people can achieve which they couldn't individually?

[MaximumZero]

But Leafsnail, that would be *le gasp* Socialism! And we can't have that, because that's not fuckin' American (despite publicly funded roadways, parks, schools, libraries...)

[GlyphGryph]

I don't view the wealthy as one cohesive group. There are a great number of wealthy people who really put that money to work doing amazing things. Bill Gates, Richard Branson, etc and so on. There are plenty of wealthy people who are... simply wealthy.

But there are wealthy assholes, just like there are assholes everywhere, with a couple important points to note:
1. Wealthy assholes have WAY more power to fuck me, you, and a great many other people over for their own satisfaction. In the same way the big burly asshole with a knife is usually more of a problem than the small guy that can only manage passive aggressiveness, wealth tends to be a kind of asshole-effect-multiplier.
2. Rich people are a fuck more likely to be assholes. Being born wealthy makes it easier to be born spoiled rotten, and being spoiled rotten is a good way to end up an asshole. Assholes who can ignore the repercussions of their actions on others to pursue their own gains are also more likely to become rich! Sure, the productive careers require the ability to at least empathize with the desires of others, but there are plenty routes to wealth nowadays that don't much amount to being productive. Generally, the worst assholes are the smart ones, and the smart assholes usually work their way into at least a modicum of wealth.
3. The rich have power, and, like anyone, they use that power, as they've been taught, to accrue more power. There's a REASON concepts like Noblesse Oblige came about - accumulation of power is dangerous even to the people who hold it, and social and cultural goals of a certain sort help the culture succeed. Nowadays, much of that danger has been reduced - There's plenty of incentive to cut the rope below you and reduce competition if you can, to help yourself, at the expense of the system as a hole. And this is ultimately Not Good, because it destabilizes the system.

So I don't think of the wealthy, in general, as bad people - but I recognize that wealth is incredibly fucking dangerous, especially when mixed with politics, and that you probably don't get wealthy without making at least a few morally questionable choices...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

But Leafsnail, that would be *le gasp* Socialism! And we can't have that, because that's not fuckin' American (despite publicly funded roadways, parks, schools, libraries...)

And the triumph card....the military. You'll be hard pressed to find an American who can deny the prowess of our military, and it's publicly funded. I do love pulling that out in debates about government programs. Conservatives don't want to admit the government can do anything right, but they don't want to deny the effectiveness of the US Military either. It's the debate equivalent of dividing by zero.

[Eagle_eye]

If the game is rigged, then don't play.

What solutions do you offer? Please focus on solutions that individuals can implement for themselves, rather than solutions that only work if others solve your problems for you.

The point is not to free yourself. It is to free everyone. One person, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really matter. What matters is organizing, getting thousands of people to resist. You can't do that effectively from outside of society. Unless you're completely selfish and concerned only with yourself, you goal should be to destroy the system, not escape it.

[kaijyuu]

Unless you're completely selfish and concerned only with yourself, you goal should be to destroy the system, not escape it.

Relevant.

[LordBucket]

If the game is rigged, then don't play.

What solutions do you offer? Please focus on solutions that individuals can implement for themselves, rather than solutions that only work if others solve your problems for you.

The point is not to free yourself. It is to free everyone. One person, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really matter. What matters is organizing, getting thousands of people to resist. You can't do that effectively from outside of society. Unless you're completely selfish and concerned only with yourself, you goal should be to destroy the system, not escape it.

...ok, but I notice you're not actually offering any solutions. Is the goal here to improve the situation or just to whine and complain? I don't have the power to "save everybody" and neither do you. I see providing useful information to some people to be a more worthy endeavor than simply sitting around crying about rich people. Rescuing some people is better than rescuing nobody

If all you people want to do is scream "Wahhh!!!! Rich people bad!!! It's too hard! The game is rigged! I can't win! Wahhh!!!!" then I have a difficult time feeling very sorry for you.

When somebody tosses you a lifevest it's stupid to refuse to take it because there are other people still in the water.

[MaximumZero]

When somebody tosses you a lifevest it's stupid to refuse to take it because there are other people still in the water.

There seems to be a mismatch in thought processes here.

There have been no life vests thrown, Bucket. You've only looked over the railing of the cruise ship, shaking your head, and shouting, "You people are fucking morons for being in the water!"

[Eagle_eye]

Or more accurately, chastising us for not building our own boat.

Bucket, if you want to change anything, you have to get other people to agree with you first. Discussing ideas is the only reasonable way to do that. If one person reads this thread and realizes they're being exploited, that's a tangible gain.

[Leafsnail]

...ok, but I notice you're not actually offering any solutions. Is the goal here to improve the situation or just to whine and complain? I don't have the power to "save everybody" and neither do you. I see providing useful information to some people to be a more worthy endeavor than simply sitting around crying about rich people. Rescuing some people is better than rescuing nobody

If all you people want to do is scream "Wahhh!!!! Rich people bad!!! It's too hard! The game is rigged! I can't win! Wahhh!!!!" then I have a difficult time feeling very sorry for you.

When somebody tosses you a lifevest it's stupid to refuse to take it because there are other people still in the water.

Teamwork.  Working as a team.  Do you understand the concept.  Why are you arbitrarily removing it as an option.

[LordBucket]

Teamwork.  Working as a team.  Do you understand the concept.  Why are you arbitrarily removing it as an option.

I don't dismiss it as an option at all. I simply don't believe that "the rich have to serve my interests" is teamwork.

I pointed out here that if people could all work together the problems could be solved instantly. I acknowledged in that same post that violent revolution (togetherness sort of being implied by that) would also solve the problem. But I also acknowledge that everybody all agreeing to do the same thing is not a solution that one person can easily implement for themselves, and offered alternatives.

If a dozen people get fed up with the system and go build a commune somewhere, great. That's a totally valid solution. I personally suggested leaving the system as a valid option, and getting together to all go leave the system together to make it easier makes a lot of sense.

But I get the impression that some posters in this thread seem to think that the rich are obligated to serve their interests. It's not teamwork to say that "all my problems would go away if only those evil rich people would use their power to make my life easier."