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[Nerjin]

So mark what you are saying is that you got caught in a OMGUS and then you took several posts to remove it?

MOD I am indeed voting. For Markressler currently.

[Kamin]

@King: I honestly don't know what a "jester" is. Clarify?
@Wrex My God, that's really awful. I'm sorry to hear that, and offer my support and condolences. Feel free to PM me if you're ever feeling off--I've enjoyed playing with you, and hope to see you on the forums soon.

Now, I must admit that you've been pretty good with your responses, Vodot. However, I'm still not satisfied with them--it really does seem like you want to get rid of the ICs for being ICs. Am I saying I don't see them as possible scum? Not at all. It just almost seems to me that you're going on a witch hunt for them. This is all fine and well, but it just makes me think you've got something to hide from them, and that you're worried about them finding out. I think you look even guiltier than Mark at this point. Vodot

I haven't gotten a good read on you Sox, so if you had anything constructive to say, now might be the time to say it.

[Wrex]

@Kamin: jester is a nonstandard role that wins the game if he gets lynched.

[vodot]

@Wrex

I will, but as I'm sure you've noticed, I've not been up to form. A combination of sleep deprevation, and failing to prevent a suicide, mostly.

...

... 

I'm trying not to feel so guilty for the fact that I might be voting for you later today, wrex.  But seriously, that is just completely terrible.  I am so sorry.  Good luck and thanks for playing.

Wrex, no PM's about the game, please.

[?]

Wrex sent me a PM yesterday asking me to remind him of a question he had been neglecting to answer.

...it really does seem like you want to get rid of the ICs for being ICs...
...It just almost seems to me that you're going on a witch hunt for them....

Kamin, please get off your ass, read my damn WoT's, and quote me directly.  "seems" and "almosts" and "feelings" aren't reasons and evidence, and it is just beyond lazy that you can't find a shred of evidence to support your vote in at least ONE of my fricking huge posts.  Do a fricking search.

In fact, no. It's time for you to DELIVER, Kamin. Show us you aren't just scum trying to get rid of me since I'm playing well and I'm relatively exposed. I want to SEE your reasons.

@Everyone else who think's I'm scum damn stupid enough to lynch the ICs in broad daylight on D1 without having or citing any evidence against them at all:
Maybe this will help clarify my mindset: I came in fully expecting that an IC could roll scum.  If that happened, I expected that IC (like any good mafia) to at some point give some poor sucker misleading information during the game, use that misinformation to their advantage to win, and then use the whole situation as an educational talking point in the dead/after-game chat.

How can that not be a possibility, given that the ICs are ostensibly also trying to win?  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, ok— maybe that isn't allowed, or something— but I do not want to be that sucker. If they are scum, they will try to lie convincingly to us at some point.  How can I not desire to guard myself, at least, from buying that lie?  This is why I really like Shake's use of brackets so that I can tell the difference between gameplay and advice; and it's probably part of the reason why I'm still *feeling* a little more touchy around Jim.

All, please pay attention to who is going after me for this.  I'm playing an aggressive game with the IC's, but I'm playing an equally aggressive game with everyone else, too.  This "lynch the IC's!!" strawman they're putting up is pretty serious and it is a great point of attack.  They are going to go after me for it to try and get me out of the game without having to spend an NK on me.

TL;DR: I prefer direct solutions.  I'd just NK Jim if I were scum and afraid of him, and don't WIFOM me here.  That is what I would do, and it's how I answered your first question on day one, Kamin.

[Nerjin]

-snip-
Maybe this will help clarify my mindset: I came in fully expecting that an IC could roll scum.  If that happened, I expected that IC (like any good mafia) to at some point give some poor sucker misleading information during the game, use that misinformation to their advantage to win, and then use the whole situation as an educational talking point in the dead/after-game chat.
-snip-

Before I forget to reply to this they are not allowed to give faulty information when it comes to advice. They can lie just like everyone else. Although now that I think about it they would be a bit more powerful scum players if they decided to speak in little half-truths. But so far they seem legitimate so I think they may not be scum. But just for fun EVERYONE!!! [NOTE: I put it in purple to indicate that I was joking with that FoS.] Now to make up with this post with another post of actual work. Be back with that in a bit.

[Kamin]

...it really does seem like you want to get rid of the ICs for being ICs...
...It just almost seems to me that you're going on a witch hunt for them....

Kamin, please get off your ass, read my damn WoT's, and quote me directly.  "seems" and "almosts" and "feelings" aren't reasons and evidence, and it is just beyond lazy that you can't find a shred of evidence to support your vote in at least ONE of my fricking huge posts.  Do a fricking search.

I have. I read everything, and from everything I've read, you're scum. Absolutely. I see you're getting upset now, too--that's exactly what I'd expect from scum. You have a lot more to lose than I do, being on a team of only two... Isn't that so? And as far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as "evidence" in this game. It's all based on what you are able to deduct from what you read, which is based off of... Right! Feelings! This vote definitely stays. Even if I wasn't going to vote for you, now it's almost a PL on your attitude. You've had one from the very beginning, and you even pissed off an IC with it. Vodot (Let's see if I get NKed now  )

Although I don't think it's really acceptable to post my Role PM up for you to see, I'll do my best to satisfy anybody who asks. I've been quite forthright in my answers thus far, and without being a WoT'er... Which I have come to see as true compensation for being scum (and which I've said explicitly before). It's sad, but the more you post in response to simple questions, the more desperate and guilty you look. In my book, anyway.

@Kamin: jester is a nonstandard role that wins the game if he gets lynched.

@ KingI don't think we have jesters in this game, and I don't see what you gain by knowing my answer, but considering it doesn't matter anyway, I'd probably just claim Cop first day. That'd get me lynched or NKed for sure. Although if the Jester must be lynched instead of NKed... Maybe claim Doctor? This ties in with a lot of the questions I've already answered, but going back and sifting through a hundred posts gets tedious, so I'm happy to humor you.

[Nerjin]

[non-Dariush] IC's, I'd like some insight into the merits and pitfalls of a D1 lynch for the town in this setup.  Seven of us have a one-in four chance of picking a scum; should we act on D1 or not? 

• Best case, we nail scum and the game gets weird, assisted 6 v 1 on D2.
• Worst case, we nail a townie power role and drop to a dangerous, unassisted 5 v 2 on D2.
• Average situation, though, is we go into D2 with an assisted 5 v 2, hopefully with a cop having picked or cleared a critical player on N1 and surviving.

Is that better than just going 6 v 2 on D2?  I'm definitely EC in this regard and would love to hear your analysis.

While going through to see something I noticed this little gem. Now who benefits if we don't lynch? Only the mafia. Who would try suggesting something that only benefits the scum? I don't think a town player would. ESPECIALLY when you go on to say:

-snip-

And Vodot, How is this information you are gathering going to benefit the town?

It's information. It forces people to commit. It exposes lies. It exposes weakness. It informs the uninformed majority. It makes educated use of our only weapon: the lynch.

The only piece of information that I think is NOT helpful to the town is: "Game over, the town loses". I know that you're having a hard time relating, Wrex, but we members of the town are feeling pretty in the dark right now— except about your continued scummy behavior and questions.
 

Quite odd it would appear. But this alone I can’t fault you on. After all opinions change. Apparently they change as they suit your needs though. When you’re not under pressure you’re fine with no-lynch. When you come under fire though you instantly switch to saying “I’m just trying to get a lynch to help the town.” Care to explain this change in heart?

[IC's + Tiruin: If I stay in the game my participation is going to drop to probably like 0.85 high-quality posts per day due to the aforementioned IRL ass-biting.  What would you prefer, that I RR like I currently am and bow out, or that I stick around with a significantly reduced level of participation?]

@vodot, you thought the possibility that we may think you prefer Jim off the game because you are scum and he is townie?

Yep. If he and I were even remotely evenly skilled, that's exactly what i'd do if I were scum. As it stands, don't be foolish: given the gap in our skill levels, regardless of how hard I tried to cloak my Jimbotting [can I use that as a verb?]  he would just eat me and move on. 

I think I feel so safe going after Jim because I know that he can spot my true alignment, right now, from ten miles away.  So if he's scum, we newbs had better start preparing for an epic battle against him or Shake. And if he's town, I have no real need to be concerned about him retaliating or eating me; he almost certainly knows my alignment already.

I'm not dismissing your concern. I think it's valid. I just know it is ultimately unmerited.

Seems like a stupid question, I know, but seeing he is an IC, if townie, it could help us better, I think.

See, this is the dangerous line of thinking I'm talking about.  Jim will still IC this game even if he's dead: there is no reason to fear lynching him based on his IC-ness and reputation alone.  Don't get complacent.

You seem awfully intent on lynching Jim. That’s understandable actually. Jim is a very intimidating guy. He’s a talented player so he’d obviously be the one a scum like yourself would want to get rid of. I mean who wouldn’t want to get that Bronze Colossus of a player out of the way if they were a scum? Let me guess your plan. You kill Jim, get his ability to examine the game [and share the information] out of the way, and then day two you say “Well since Jim wasn’t scum then it must be Shakerag! What’re the odds of BOTH IC’s not being scum? Pretty low if you ask me.”

-Snip-
@Everyone else who think's I'm scum damn stupid enough to lynch the ICs in broad daylight on D1 without having or citing any evidence against them at all:
Maybe this will help clarify my mindset: I came in fully expecting that an IC could roll scum.  If that happened, I expected that IC (like any good mafia) to at some point give some poor sucker misleading information during the game, use that misinformation to their advantage to win, and then use the whole situation as an educational talking point in the dead/after-game chat.

How can that not be a possibility, given that the ICs are ostensibly also trying to win?  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, ok— maybe that isn't allowed, or something— but I do not want to be that sucker. If they are scum, they will try to lie convincingly to us at some point.  How can I not desire to guard myself, at least, from buying that lie?  This is why I really like Shake's use of brackets so that I can tell the difference between gameplay and advice; and it's probably part of the reason why I'm still *feeling* a little more touchy around Jim.

All, please pay attention to who is going after me for this.  I'm playing an aggressive game with the IC's, but I'm playing an equally aggressive game with everyone else, too.  This "lynch the IC's!!" strawman they're putting up is pretty serious and it is a great point of attack.  They are going to go after me for it to try and get me out of the game without having to spend an NK on me.

TL;DR: I prefer direct solutions.  I'd just NK Jim if I were scum and afraid of him, and don't WIFOM me here.  That is what I would do, and it's how I answered your first question on day one, Kamin.

You’re right you are too smart for that. Which is why I find it odd that you did it anyway. Maybe I misread the above, if so feel free to prove me wrong. You DO however seem to be trying to push suspicion onto them pretty hard. You claim it’s to make sure we don’t idolize the omni-potent Jim who is capable of seeing alignment very easily, according to you. Maybe, and feel free to prove me wrong, you are trying to shift suspicion onto them right now. Then when they start claiming that you’re scum you bust out “See? I suspected them from D1 and now they’re finally trying to take me out.” I get the slight feeling that what you are REALLY trying to do is play on our fears of the experienced players. Fear that you, as a potential scum, would feel the most.

I think you're scum Vodot. Be sure that I'll be watching your posts a little more closely.

[Shakerag]

Wrex, no PM's about the game, please.

[?]

Wrex sent me a PM yesterday asking me to remind him of a question he had been neglecting to answer.

[Please copy that PM to the mod if you haven't already.]

@Everyone else who think's I'm scum damn stupid enough to lynch the ICs in broad daylight on D1 without having or citing any evidence against them at all:
Maybe this will help clarify my mindset: I came in fully expecting that an IC could roll scum.  If that happened, I expected that IC (like any good mafia) to at some point give some poor sucker misleading information during the game, use that misinformation to their advantage to win, and then use the whole situation as an educational talking point in the dead/after-game chat.

How can that not be a possibility, given that the ICs are ostensibly also trying to win?  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, ok— maybe that isn't allowed, or something— but I do not want to be that sucker. If they are scum, they will try to lie convincingly to us at some point.  How can I not desire to guard myself, at least, from buying that lie?  This is why I really like Shake's use of brackets so that I can tell the difference between gameplay and advice; and it's probably part of the reason why I'm still *feeling* a little more touchy around Jim.

[Again, ICs are honor-bound to not mislead you in an instructional role.  If one of us is giving advice/commentary about how you're playing the game, take it in good faith.  Yes, we can mislead you, but only in the context of in-game information (i.e. fakeclaiming a doctor role).  BMXXXIII is a good example, as both ICs were scum, but gave the town earnest advice on how to hunt scum.

And, frankly, speaking as someone who has been scum as a playing IC, we don't need to give you misinformation in the way you were thinking to win.]

Having said that, vodot, while being aggressive isn't a scumtell per se, you do seem to be reacting in a rather strong manner when (at the point of your last post) you didn't seem to have one vote on you. 

Although I don't think it's really acceptable to post my Role PM up for you to see, I'll do my best to satisfy anybody who asks.

[PROTIP: It's not.]


[Tiruin: Loving the flavor so far.  Good job.]

[Jim Groovester]

I will, but as I'm sure you've noticed, I've not been up to form. A combination of sleep deprevation, and failing to prevent a suicide, mostly.

I'm sorry to hear that.

If you want to play another BM, feel free to sign up again when you're ready.

[OK, Can I pause the hardassery to just say... really? I really did think you would be able to tell pretty much immediately, and that you ICs are basically playing with the kid gloves on.  If you REALLY can't, then I really might be pushing too hard to increase the 'default' level of healthy caution the town should have for the ICs.]

This is hilarious. You said you wanted to get everyone to treat me like a player and not an angelic being, when you've made the same mistake and attribute to me divine skill.

If you thought I could instantly tell everyone's alignment I would already be voting scum.

How good did you really think the players on this board were when you signed up?

Back off.  I said "there's no reason to fear lynching him", not "there's no reason not to lynch him", and there is a BIG difference between those two thoughts.  That's been my line throughout, and I'm not ashamed of it.  I've kidded around with you and pressed you as a personal challenge, and because I thought you'd be a fun target, but I WILL vote and lynch you when I am convinced you're scum, and I'm certainly NOT, yet. 

Back off? I'll do no such thing.

The ICs are not here to throw yourself against and see how you measure up. This is a place to learn how to play the game, not a dojo for cocky bastards to challenge the grandmasters like in some shitty anime or martial arts movie.

And you're sending me mixed signals here. You said you thought I was scum. Now you're not convinced I'm scum. Quite the change of position.

Why do you keep adding reasons between you and the vote on me you really, really want to cast? Scared, cowardly scum much?

DO Answer the question...  pretty please.

No.

Okay, fine. Everyone has room for improvement.

@Everyone else who think's I'm scum damn stupid enough to lynch the ICs in broad daylight on D1 without having or citing any evidence against them at all:
Maybe this will help clarify my mindset: I came in fully expecting that an IC could roll scum.  If that happened, I expected that IC (like any good mafia) to at some point give some poor sucker misleading information during the game, use that misinformation to their advantage to win, and then use the whole situation as an educational talking point in the dead/after-game chat.

How can that not be a possibility, given that the ICs are ostensibly also trying to win?  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, ok— maybe that isn't allowed, or something— but I do not want to be that sucker. If they are scum, they will try to lie convincingly to us at some point.  How can I not desire to guard myself, at least, from buying that lie?  This is why I really like Shake's use of brackets so that I can tell the difference between gameplay and advice; and it's probably part of the reason why I'm still *feeling* a little more touchy around Jim.

All, please pay attention to who is going after me for this.  I'm playing an aggressive game with the IC's, but I'm playing an equally aggressive game with everyone else, too.  This "lynch the IC's!!" strawman they're putting up is pretty serious and it is a great point of attack.  They are going to go after me for it to try and get me out of the game without having to spend an NK on me.

ICs are obligated by their position to provide genuine advice. If an IC abused their position like you thought they would, I would be livid. How many times have we said this? It's ridiculous that you still held to the same position even after our assurances we wouldn't abuse our positions.

And it's not really much of a strawman at all because you've repeatedly said you've suspected the ICs.

TL;DR: I prefer direct solutions.  I'd just NK Jim if I were scum and afraid of him, and don't WIFOM me here.  That is what I would do, and it's how I answered your first question on day one, Kamin.

But this is WIFOM. You can't magically make it not WIFOM just because you say so.

FOS on vodot

So what exactly is your case on vodot? You're talking about how he's scum in ways that aren't necessarily relevant to the posts you're quoting.

And some of your points are really stretching it.

It's kind of a bandwagon right now to suspect vodot for suspecting the ICs, and I think you're jumping on it.

[vodot]

@Shake,
I don't know how to respond to you; I know I'm coming on really strong, but I don't want accusations against me to stop me from scumhunting aggressively.  Where is the balance here, and how do I escape this accusation -> strong response -> stronger accusation -> stronger response cycle?

@Nerjin,
Between those two posts of mine is Tiruin telling us all to lynch on D1. I was on the fence about the D1 lynch, having typically avoided it in in-person play, but I trust the experience of the IC's in this format and I simply made up my mind after reading his and Jim's posts. 

Now, THIS is interesting to me:

I think you're scum Vodot. Be sure that I'll be watching your posts a little more closely.

I'll take a page out of Jim's book here, and say: if you think I'm scum, Nerjin, then why aren't you VOTING me?

Jim called me out for it, and I'm not voting him because I have no reason to actually think Jim is scum. 

But you? It's a day before Lynch, the votes are coming in, you just came out and TOLD me I'm scum to my face, and then:

you
didn't
vote.

Why not, Nerjin? At least Kamin is consistent; and I think he really believes what he is saying about me.  I think YOU, however, are just a tagalong, bandwagoning scum, and you don't care who we lynch tonight, as long as it isn't you.

[Wow, I hope you're scum and I can look back on this as the first good example of me using deduction.]

(I'm already voting Nerjin, but you should imagine me putting his name here in big red letters as the dramatic conclusion to my deduction).

PPE (I):
Jim ninja'd me and took a page out of his own book regarding Nerjin's bandwagon.

[vodot]

@Jim
While I'm a little embarrassed that I made the same mistake that I was warning others not to make, I think that just reflects the reality of my own unrealistic expectations regarding your skill level, coming in.  I'm paying for that, obviously, a lot right now, but that genuinely was my expectation and I think I've played consistently according to that erroneous expectation.

[Jim Groovester]

@Shake,
I don't know how to respond to you; I know I'm coming on really strong, but I don't want accusations against me to stop me from scumhunting aggressively.  Where is the balance here, and how do I escape this accusation -> strong response -> stronger accusation -> stronger response cycle?

It's not about reacting stronger than the guy before you, it's about making convincing arguments. This doesn't usually require that you come off as more condemning than the guy you're responding to, only that your arguments are better.

They have to be well presented as well, so that people don't just skip over them.

[kingfisher1112]

@Kamin: Thank you for answering the question. And a strange one at that.
@Vodot: Andddddd here comes the emotion. Vodot I was pretty sure about your towniness and you reminded me of someone from the last BM. Now, not so sure. So answer me this: Why are you being angry?
@Shakerag: Because I'm not happy with the amount of info at present.

[vodot]

King,
I'm wrestling (badly) with trying to reconcile a lot of emotions regarding the last day of posts: indignation and suspicion that people are accusing me to get me killed and to shut me up, I'm embarrassed by Jim pointing out how much of a mess my whole "let's suspect the IC's" bit played out.

I think part of the problem is simply that I have (until tomorrow) too much free time at my job to read this thread, so I'm posting way too much and spending way more time than I should be on each posts, tweaking, which tends to make them sound angrier and pointier with each tweak I make. 

I'm not angry, I just want to win, and I don't want to die,  plain and simple.

[Nerjin]

-snip
@Nerjin,
Between those two posts of mine is Tiruin telling us all to lynch on D1. I was on the fence about the D1 lynch, having typically avoided it in in-person play, but I trust the experience of the IC's in this format and I simply made up my mind after reading his and Jim's posts. 

Oh alrighty then. I suppose that does make sense.

Now, THIS is interesting to me:

I think you're scum Vodot. Be sure that I'll be watching your posts a little more closely.

I'll take a page out of Jim's book here, and say: if you think I'm scum, Nerjin, then why aren't you VOTING me?

Jim called me out for it, and I'm not voting him because I have no reason to actually think Jim is scum. 
But you? It's a day before Lynch, the votes are coming in, you just came out and TOLD me I'm scum to my face, and then:

you
didn't
vote.

Why not, Nerjin? At least Kamin is consistent; and I think he really believes what he is saying about me.  I think YOU, however, are just a tagalong, bandwagoning scum, and you don't care who we lynch tonight, as long as it isn't you.

[Wow, I hope you're scum and I can look back on this as the first good example of me using deduction.]

Well I think you’re scum. I’m SURE Mark is. He’s my top suspect right now. He’s lurking right now to try to get us to forget about his tells and move onto other people. Until he assuages some of my fears he is my top suspect. You are #2 although your above response has lowered my suspicion [for now].