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[Loud Whispers]

So please tell us what's your random death and we can explain to you how to avoid it or find it a good time to high tail out of there before you get crush.

Pretty much this. Although I don't see why you're surprised that you can get killed by things entirely out of your control. It's not like you choose to be killed.

[k9wazere]

So please tell us what's your random death and we can explain to you how to avoid it or find it a good time to high tail out of there before you get crush.

Do you honestly think that all deaths are avoidable? Honestly?

Here's a recent one (unavoidable).

After some time crossing a glacier, the game decides to load a new chunk/re-evaluate the temperature/who knows what. Net result is that I'm looking a the ground being a blanket of snow one second, the next second I'm "flying/open space", then immediately after I'm falling, then encased in ice.

Here's an already used example:

Travelling with 4 or 5 hired soldiers. Get ambushed. Within three moves, dead from headshot by Kobald archer. You going to tell me that's avoidable purely through good decision making?

I will concede that perhaps, due to the game's AI algorithms, a different three move set (ie west,west,south vs north,north,north) might have yielded different results. Hell, even replaying the exact same moves might have yielded different results due to Random Number Generation being a factor in combat. This is not something that is purely affected by Good Judgement/Decision Making.

But you are telling me all deaths can be avoided, and I know this isn't so.

Because I understand that RNG can yield "critical failures" which turn an easy encounter into a fatal one.

Which is why no amount of good advise will obviate the need for Save/Load functionality.

[Loud Whispers]

Do you honestly think that all deaths are avoidable? Honestly?

Yah and yes

After some time crossing a glacier, the game decides to load a new chunk/re-evaluate the temperature/who knows what. Net result is that I'm looking a the ground being a blanket of snow one second, the next second I'm "flying/open space", then immediately after I'm falling, then encased in ice.

Ouch. You must've crossed from the glacier into an ocean. It helps to check the (W)eather, time of (D)ay and most importantly, the (T)emperature when walking over significantly large bodies of water/swimming in temperate waters (which can freeze).

Travelling with 4 or 5 hired soldiers. Get ambushed. Within three moves, dead from headshot by Kobald archer. You going to tell me that's avoidable purely through good decision making?

Yes

I will concede that perhaps, due to the game's AI algorithms, a different three move set (ie west,west,south vs north,north,north) might have yielded different results. Hell, even replaying the exact same moves might have yielded different results due to Random Number Generation being a factor in combat. This is not something that is purely affected by Good Judgement/Decision Making.

Where you are when the ambush happens is also a factor. A lot of civilizations have [LOCAL_BANDITRY] so it's a good idea to pick your terrain carefully when travelling in or out of cities, as it gets much more likely to be ambushed when doing so.

But you are telling me all deaths can be avoided, and I know this isn't so.

Charging into the HFS is pretty much certain death, but it's a great way to go. Once you're dead, you start a new adventure. Death isn't failure in adventure mode any more than death is failure in Fortress mode - it's inevitable.
Losing is Fun.

Which is why no amount of good advise will obviate the need for Save/Load functionality.

DF is rogue-like, hence the save system that kills save scumming. It's supposed to be that way, final death.

[k9wazere]

After some time crossing a glacier, the game decides to load a new chunk/re-evaluate the temperature/who knows what. Net result is that I'm looking a the ground being a blanket of snow one second, the next second I'm "flying/open space", then immediately after I'm falling, then encased in ice.

Ouch. You must've crossed from the glacier into an ocean. It helps to check the (W)eather, time of (D)ay and most importantly, the (T)emperature when walking over significantly large bodies of water/swimming in temperate waters (which can freeze).

The tile I was on at the time (viewable with Shift-Q) was a glacier tile surrounded by glacier tiles.

I've seen this happen more than once, so I knew it was likely but didn't care. In the sense that I had prior experience of glacier crossings, the death was avoidable by choosing not to cross said glacier :p

Try it for yourself, some time. If you find a big enough glacier that borders some land, you can take oceans out of the equation entirely.

I've observed a few things:

When crossing a glacier with companions, often they are encased in ice every few screens, as half of the screen (terrain behind you) is updated/changed, while terrain in front of you isn't. You'll understand what I mean if you try it.

At some point, after many, many screens, a rectangular, unclimbable "ice block" will cause the game to pause for several seconds, before either appearing in front or behind you, blocking either your forward progress or retreat. They can be navigated around.

Also at some point, after even more screens of glacier traversal, you will be encased in ice as the game recalculates the glaciers properties. What causes this exactly I don't know, but I can assure you it is not moving from glacier to ocean (although it is possible that the same thing happens there also). Perhaps I moved from one glacier biome to another glacier biome?

[k9wazere]

Travelling with 4 or 5 hired soldiers. Get ambushed. Within three moves, dead from headshot by Kobald archer. You going to tell me that's avoidable purely through good decision making?

Yes

Hehehe. Gotcha.

By giving me that answer, you are basically saying that you would never be killed by archers in an ambush, unless you chose to play badly and get killed.

You are saying that you can, by your own good judgement, entirely avoid being killed in an ambush against multiple archers.

Effectively, you are saying that you can ensure either a) you are never fired upon OR b) never subject to a failed block/dodge/critical hit. (b) is impossible, since you cannot manipulate the RNG. I cannot disprove (a), but common sense would seem to dictate you will be fired upon at some point.

I would love to put this to the test! I would love to put your character in a series of ambushes, like the one my character faced, as many as it took, until you took an arrow to the knee It would happen at some point.

[Auning]

Using a shield with some decent shield user stats tend to eliminate most deaths/cripplings by your average archer/crossbowman. Elite Crossbowmen and bowmen are another story, however, by the time you even begin to encounter them, your adventurer is going to be even more skilled and geared. There's a few small tips and things I do before I even begin adventuring. Try and see if these may help with your gripes for the time being.

Always go to the nearest keeps and acquire at least a full suit of armor. Make sure your helmet is always at least iron. If you're melee, always use a shield as you start. Have as many hoods and cloaks as possible. You may not be very proficient at using it all, but it will save your life and limbs when your adventurer can't defend himself with his own skill in the beginning.

Please keep in mind the game is only 0.34.11. Complaining about current mechanic and gameplay flaws in this is like playing a closed beta of a game and then saying "Too buggy/flawed."

[UltraValican]

Using a shield with some decent shield user stats tend to eliminate most deaths/cripplings by your average archer/crossbowman. Elite Crossbowmen and bowmen are another story, however, by the time you even begin to encounter them, your adventurer is going to be even more skilled and geared. There's a few small tips and things I do before I even begin adventuring. Try and see if these may help with your gripes for the time being.

Not really, I had professional shield use and I still get brained by lacky crossbowmen. The only way to counter archers is to bum rush those sons of bitches and beat the shit out of them before they can draw.

[Auning]

Not really, I had professional shield use and I still get brained by lacky crossbowmen. The only way to counter archers is to bum rush those sons of bitches and beat the shit out of them before they can draw.

It will still happen. The higher your defensive skills the less likely it will happen. I agree with the tactics though. You can't let them just spam their arrows into the fight as it goes.

[Splint]

After reading through this whole, I wanna say debate, I can say I can side with both parties.

Leaving "losing is fun" aside, certain factors do kill adventure mode for more than likely alot of people. I personally love it because I can manage to avoid being killed by archers and I'm very rarly outnumbered.

A factor of consideration: Going alone. While this seems incredibly stupid, the game wieghts the attacks and number of bandits by how many men you have with you. My expierence is it will usually be 1-3 if you'r alone, except for camps. the number of enemies goes up to tip the balance against you and your men no matter what.


I can fully understand his want to lead from the front. That's how heroes roll in the type of setting DF falls under. Very rarely will they hide behind thier men. I personally find novice ambusher is enough to get in close enough to kill an archer before he can get a second shot off, as more often than not I think most first shots may be like... I wanna say a practice shot cause in both fort and adv mode archers seem to almost always miss thier first shot past a certain distance. Once thier rangers are gone, bandits tend to drop like flies if you target thier limbs to restrict mobility and disarm them, with a friendly bit of kiting to keep it to one or, at most, two at a time. Besides that, there's probably people, myself and the OP included, who don't like to hide and throw crap because quite frankly it's more boring than anything (All's fair in love and war, but often times what's fair is boring as hell in a game.) Hell, it can be fun to throw things sometimes though, so I'll concede to both parties there. ("Run from me will you? WELL YOU FORGOT YOUR HALBERD")

Also, bring a ranger if you need to have soldiers with you. If nothing else, even one ranger with you can make a huge difference, because you can run interferrence while they shoot thier legs out from under them, and the ranged crap works for your guys too.

On the realism side, minues ranged weaponry, the way things go I find great. And does anyone ever consider the whole paper skull thing being the result of getting whacked in the temple? you know, one of the thinest parts of the skull? Even with a helmet a good whack would still be enough to kill you or break bones, though against rigid armor I would think a stab would glance off rather than actually do anything (I'd personally rather see "jamming the helmet into the skull, fracturing the skull and tearing/bruising the brain" or something if you get slashed or stabbed in the head.)

And whoever said know when to call it, it's a good idea. drop one or two of them if you can, or at least take off a limb, and if you don't think you can win, JUST RUN. "And you ain't losin' cuz you can come back fer anotha go." Just don't bring more guys than you did before because that might make more enemies spawn. No-one says you need to stay and die in an engagement. Also, dunno if anyone said this, but them human-state were creatures? They pass out awefully quick when you perforate thier limbs with a sword/axe/other sharp pointy thing. Just hope they don't punch you in the face.

Dunno if I formulated my thoughts well enough on this, and some of that's probably been said before but I felt to give my two cents on this because I agree with things on both sides.

[Corai]

A factor of consideration: Going alone. While this seems incredibly stupid, the game wieghts the attacks and number of bandits by how many men you have with you. My expierence is it will usually be 1-3 if you'r alone, except for camps. the number of enemies goes up to tip the balance against you and your men no matter what.

Well, this is going to change the next update. It'll go from 1V4, to 1v(Insert entire bandit gang here) because they'll move as a group. But this also means that no longer is it ALWAYS outnumbered. Once you get enough troops, you will be able to outnumber most bandits because they don't generate randomly anymore.

I assume from the devlogs this is correct.

[Splint]

And it shall be glorious.

[Corai]

It shall be glorious until people start going "Really?" when 30-40 bandits attack them 2 minutes in because they walked right into them.

[Splint]

Well, if you aren't surrounded completely I don't see the problem RUN LIKE A BITCH FOR HELP POWERS ACITVATE!

[Tsuchigumo550]

I've never sneaked around, ever. I don't even know the key.

I... would like to know.

Archers are super good at oneshotting, and while arrows are and were realistically super deadly, it should have no ability to peirce armor. At all.
Leather, realistically, slows the arrow considerably depending on how tough it is. While sharp arrows have little trouble cutting into leather and can easily get a kill shot with this light armor, crude ones will have trouble.

Secondly, if an arrow hits a before it hits an organ, it's stopped. The game can't represent this, so the arrows should be powered down in suit.

While arrows should be able to cut into and get a kill through leather, even, say, two layers, nearly any metal should prevent a kill. We aren't covering ourselves with leaf, and it's not paper-thin sheets, we're wearing actual armor. Bronze *might* get broken by a heavier arrowhead, such as iron, but even so shouldn't be able to do anything to internal organs.

The reason behind this is because leather is easy to cut into, but if you were to take a knife and stab iron or even copper armor, chances are it would barely dent. Metal's molecular bonds... No, the only important thing is cutting force.

I would like to see ranged weapons get severely downgraded, to where it would be as hard to kill an adventurer in full iron armor (as in, the arrows never hit a chink in the armor) as it would to kill a bronze colossus with fluffy wamblers. Doable by only the greatest.

This hints at something that's needed in the future- armor and weapon updates, to include fuller armors and a longbow. In a militaristic age, armor is made to suit the world and the attackers. If attackers can slice at an open spot, you cover it. the result? Armor and weaponry is developed not only based on past inventions but on available technologies and theories.

The main fix? Rebalance arrow's ability to pierce, and possibly do so by edits to the strength of armors and weapons game-wide, so that metal armors allow enough protection to reasonably safely approach a small group of archers.

Furthermore, more forms of armor should be easily obtainable pre-siege. I'm all for goblins having masks as a signature, but every group should have a helmet or two armor pieces that completely protect the face and head, so that when made of metal, arrows have no chance of getting a single shot kill on the the brain.

Body armor should have balance- heavier, clunkier armor that protects the upper and lower body, and the upper arms, and then the kind of metal armor that allows a still very sneaky approach, but offers very little protection other than the metal composition.

From there, gauntlets, gloves, metal pants, leggings and boots complete the full set of armor, which can the have a shield for added guarding.

Bows in general could use a revamp. In addition to adding a longbow, hard to use, slow to fire, and cumbersome due to it's size, but more powerful than the average bow, add different kinds of ammunition beyond material composition. Possibly add the ability to make a call within the raws to a type of venom to cover or inject from the arrows, using the venom or material and a stack of arrows to produce poisoned arrows.

This adds a whole new level to combat somewhat like we have now, but more balanced because bows aren't stupid powerful, they just have different abilities.

As far as ammunition types go, regular arrows are cheap, easily made, and go about as far as getting through leather and flesh before stopping.
Other arrow types can make it through the weaker metal armors, but require more materials. Only advanced metalworkers can make the strongest of arrows (i.e, dwarves can make arrows that can break into relatively powerful metals, humans and dwarves can make the anti-middle grade armor arrows, and everyone can make basic arrows)

Tracking should have an addition, which allows you to sit and stay hidden to watch an area to give you a general idea of what's in an area. Near a bandit camp, you might get a glimpse at what weapons they'll use, and in the wilderness you might be able to stalk a deer. This would require not only to show signs of moving people but also have structures throw out signals, such as when you near a town with a farm "A chicken clucks in the distance." or something similar. For that quote, you'd need:
To be sneaking, or to have activated "watchful" mode, which slows down movement to hide and watch.
The town would have to have a chicken.
You'd have to be near the town.

So, if you were sneaking, say, near a bandit encampment...
"You hear someone sorting coins" if the bandits have coins,
or other things, like somehow noticing what weapons are being used. Things like shining metal for metal weapons in use as a vauge hint, or "you see the "bandit 1" raise the -iron crossbow-" for specific sightings. While this might wind up making some senseless sightings, it would make for a good system that can be polished later.


This post has turned into both a rant and a "what I'd like to see" post, and it's half on, half off the topic, but I felt like I should make my ideas known. I'm not a modder and I'm not the only one with opinions, but I figured this needed to be known.

[Wrex]

That's why you have bodkin arrows, which do in fact pierce armor like DF projectiles do. It's a needle, with a shaft. they could easily kill a knight, since arrow vollies fell, and the best way to penetrate plate is from above. It could also penetrate from the front, although with limited success, it could hit vital organs. Crossbow's were so powerful against armor than it was banned for use against Christians's, since a barely trained crossbowman could shoot someone straight through their armor. I'm not defending a wodden arrow piercing candy, but an iron bolt should unquestionably rip into iron armor.