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Author Topic: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)  (Read 8874 times)

Splint

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2012, 06:46:23 pm »

Seems more like it'f be a case of needing the right ammo for the right job. Lightly armoerd goblins? Pff. Cheap copper or wood ammo. Heavily armored dorf? Bodkin tipped bolts please.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2012, 08:22:25 pm »

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Well firstly, most of the time you don't choose to play badly. If you make a poor decision that ends up in adventurer gibbing' it probably wasn't the intended effect, most of the time.

Secondly, yes. By your own judgement it is possible to avoid being killed when ambushed by multiple archers. There might be some place you can sneak off to, some way you can kill everyone or whatever your adventurer can do based on the situation present. If you've got companions it's very easy to never be shot at. This added with an adventurer who actually uses a shield for once ( ::) ) means that while your companions are busy being killed, you can leave the melee fighters off to do their own thing while you kill the bowmen who have the courtesy to stand still while you tear their lungs apart.
Regarding (b), yes, you can manipulate the RNG. Skills, attributes, armour and equipment aren't just for show. Travelling on precipitous grounds is great for stunning and knock backs, rivers are great sources of food and water, forests nearby cities are almost always death traps... The list goes on. If your quarrel is that there's the chance that your adventurer will be killed by a flying bolt of some such, then your issue is literally that adventurers can die.

I would love to put this to the test! I would love to put your character in a series of ambushes, like the one my character faced, as many as it took, until you took an arrow to the knee  It would happen at some point.
I've had adventurers who've woken up to see badgers gnawing their faces, adventurers who've run for day and night from bogeymen to seek the comfort of a night hag lair, adventurers who emerged bloody and weary from death defying combats and those who perished forgotten in the cold undergrounds of the world. Having an adventurer take an arrow to the knee would in no way make me destroy my +cedar table+, throw my =glass mug= in anger nor start fist fights with the local police, it would just give me an excuse to grab a crutch and go fight the biggest, nastiest creature I could find and win a worthy retirement, or die.
Either way, the adventure ends and a new adventure can begin!

It would happen at some point.
Oh no doubt. The thing about DF is you play to lose, lose in the most glorious and worthy way possible.
But if you want your adventurer to live till retirement, don't fight warlords, elite soldiers and the worst of the crowd with a fledgeling adventurer. If you acquire the fame such that bandits would take note of you, make damn bloody good use of your fame and recruit the nastiest and toughest looking soldiers and peasants you can find.

Tsuchigumo550

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2012, 10:15:27 pm »

In chaos there must be balance, friend. The thing is, there's no way to prepare for an arrow, the chances of dying by one is unbalanced compared to the rest of the game. See, if I'm an untrained adventurer on his way to fight wildlife then take on a trog lair, and I find a lair in my way, it's smart to avoid it. Therefore, I've made a choice. (Because, recently, i didn't. A cave dragon ate my spleen five steps later.)

Thing is, arrows are both powerful and common. Ridiculously powerful, and any group of sentient beings are sure to have that one archer who gets a headshot. This isn't making a stupid choice, or complaining that an archer CAN kill us, it's complaining that dodging the overpowered archers cannot happen every fight, and that fighting with an archer from more than two tiles away is suicide. Even if you could carry endless martyrs into battle with you, the archers still need to be toned down.
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Auning

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2012, 11:45:14 pm »

Thing is, arrows are both powerful and common. Ridiculously powerful, and any group of sentient beings are sure to have that one archer who gets a headshot. This isn't making a stupid choice, or complaining that an archer CAN kill us, it's complaining that dodging the overpowered archers cannot happen every fight, and that fighting with an archer from more than two tiles away is suicide. Even if you could carry endless martyrs into battle with you, the archers still need to be toned down.
While I don't exactly deem archers and crossbowmen to be a real problem, I believe the players should have some influence over this. In previous versions, there used to be TONS of wrestlers in adventure mode. These got reduced to largely zip, and were replaced by other variety of soldiers. This shows that there is the ability to reduce the quantity of archers. There should probably be a small section of the world gen parameters that allow you to edit small specific things, such as this. For example:

Soldier/Bandit type possibility
Ranged count 30%
Melee count 70%

(Generalized version. For more control, have a % that influences every type. e.g. Lasher, Swordsman, Spearman, Bowman, etc)

Nothing wrong with giving the players more control over their world generation. That way, everyone wins. This is already part of the intent of the game, or so one of the older development logs seemed to suggest. Letting players be able to gen a desirable world to their specifications, even to very small and large degrees alike.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2012, 11:54:02 pm »

dodging the overpowered archers cannot happen every fight
But that makes sense.  Live by the sword, die by the sword; if you spend a bunch of your life getting shot at you're probably going to get shot eventually.

The idea is that you play the world not the character.  Fights being seriously dangerous isn't just about realism, it's about supporting the basic gameplay: you play a character, the world changes around you, that character dies or is retired, you play a different character in the same persistent world.  If you could survive with the same character for long periods of time without being cautious, new players would probably just stick to the same guy forever and then savescum (losing a bunch of progress at the time) if the messed up and their guy died, or quit the game forever if he got stuck in an unfixable situation after they saved.  Experienced players would probably get bored with never dying as well.

Now, I will admit: ambushes beginning with your character being immediately shot in the head is plain obnoxious, but there are still actions you can take to reduce the risk; you can find cover, you can go prone, you can prepare better equipment/skills/companions, or you could not enter areas that have bandits if you aren't prepared to be shot at.  Furthermore, the new update will introduce tracking and groups moving around on the map without magically knowing where the player is, so there will be a much stronger element of skill to avoiding ambushes.  And it will add non-lethal combat in towns, so you can just stick to that if bows are annoying you.
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Toady One

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2012, 12:06:39 am »

OP doesn't get to tell people to go fuck themselves or that they make him or her sick.  People need to be more relaxed if they want to manage a discussion.
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