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Author Topic: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)  (Read 8907 times)

SirAaronIII

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 02:11:38 am »

Another thing you could do is aim for the feet. If a bone, nerve, or the whole thing is chipped/broken/fractured/severed, they'll fall down, giving tgem a severe speed penalty. They can still attack and might get lucky though, so finish them quickly.
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k9wazere

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 03:48:15 am »

Clearly you not playing it well and by well I mean the next logical step from to many deaths, Save scumming. Also you need to grind up sneak, and learn the best tactic, "Aim for the hands then aim for the face" once you disarm them you can finish them off. if your strong enough you can oneshot folks faster than they could oneshot you.
I'm well aware of combat strategies. But there is no "magic formula" to stop the silly one-hit deaths (especially ranged) which will kill even the most experienced players and the strongest adventurers.

I agree with some of the posters here... this game needs a legit Save/Reload function in adventure mode. Let us save in a town or city and reload on death, without having to force-quit the game or backup the save folder.

The simple truth is, after you've created 50 adventurers, you want to do something else other than kill vampires and level up on wombats. But the increase in risk on the other encounters is so great, that you really should expect to die more often than not.

And that's fine, *if* you can Save/Load.
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Fortress Calling

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2012, 04:37:16 am »

Realism IS fun.
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k9wazere

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2012, 05:46:31 am »

Realism IS fun.

More often than not, the reverse is true. I'm sure you can imagine how tedious it would be if games were 100% realistic.

Let's face it, an adventurer isn't going to improve his fighting skills overnight, no matter how many times he wrestles a peasant. So in a 100% realistic Adventure mode, you would have to train daily for several hours at a time. You would spend months becoming an elite fighter. And you would still die in a hail of arrows.

Anyone who understands game theory will concede that the pursuit of realism won't always make a great game. There is a time and a place for realism; there are also cases where it will add nothing and cause frustration.
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Trif

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2012, 05:51:56 am »

All the fun of adventure mode has been eroded for me by too many insta-kill deaths which I could do nothing about.
In my humble experience, I rarely get killed without any mistakes on my part. If I die, I don't stop playing but ask myself: What could I have done to prevent this death? And then the next two adventurers die the same way, but after that I usually play better.

I noticed especially two points in your post:

And this just isn't fun.
But then neither is training up an elite swordsman (by wrestling wombats, no less), leading your men into battle and then dying instantaneously to a iron bolt to the face.
Wrestle as many wombats as you like, but leading your men into battle is like asking to get shot. Archers always aim at the closest target! Let your companions catch the arrows for you!

And for the other point, let me quote you out of context:
At some point, you have to know when to cut your losses and leave.
This might be the most important advice! If your enemy is too strong, get out of there! I stopped dying a lot when I ran away like a coward from opponents that decimated my companions.
This might've helped you with the ring o'kobolds. Especially when you only played for an hour or so, ambushes can kill you really easily. My strategy is: get away from the archers, let the companions get shot, hide behind the nearest tree and sneak away.
Adventurers in Dwarf Fortress are versatile. If you barely escaped a bandit camp filled with archers, bring your own group of archers to the fight (or just strangle the bandits in their sleep). If you just can't hit a night creature, run away and sneak back after learning how to throw!

So, even though your experiences may differ, I've had tons of fun with (vanilla) Adventure Mode, and I think that it's an incredibly tense and tactical game which is enhanced by the level of realism.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2012, 06:19:46 am »

The problem is that they haven't nailed the realism to otherwise ratio due to thier being a lack of it as of yet. You should be able to train with your companions. Direct combat should not be the only way to solve a problem. Against archers, Armour should mean something, and you should be able to buy it or earn it without nicking the bits you want from a dozen fortresses. You should be able to join groups of more experienced adventurers/mercenaries/soldiers who are on their way to deal with the problem instead of being the sole recruiting force. People should come to you to invite you or conscript you into their forces, or hunt with them. Bring the world to life. Fortunately this what toady's working on now, so i have high hopes :D.
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k9wazere

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2012, 06:26:50 am »

Firstly, as much as I appreciate the advice, people are making assumptions that I'm playing poorly, which is a little unfair, really. When I die, there isn't a "I could have done better there" feeling. More of a "my luck ran out" experience.

Also the micro management. You don't want to be the first person to open that door, so instead you run sneak past the door a couple times, until your companions accidentally walk through it. You then wait for at least two of them to enter the room and engage the hostiles. If you're not "savescumming" you probably let the soldiers do all the work for you, only walking in when the dust has settled. Heroic, eh?

Now the point I'm making isn't that you shouldn't die in Adventure Mode. Really.

I'm just saying, DF forces you to play conservatively. To the extreme. To the point where you just don't let your adventurer do anything that could hurt him. And even then you can be killed by situations totally outside your control.

Lately, I've tried a couple times to:

a) completely travel across a continent
b) get famous enough to start taking on dragons, forgotten beasts, etc.

Those were two of my ambitions for pariticular adventurers. 9 times out of 10, their luck ran out before achieving those goals. 9 times out of 10, you only get to see bandits and wolves before you die. And even had I come across a dragon, the advice here would be to over-run it with hired soldiers before simply taking the credit.

Does no-one understand that this is pathetic? An adventurer who hides and cowers behind his hired guns? What kind of adventurer is that? What kind of person enjoys playing this way?

So basically the choice comes down to:

a) play in a way which is fun, but see 5% of what the game has to offer (bandits and wolves).
b) stay alive, by choosing not to be a "general" who stays out of harms way.
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Fortress Calling

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2012, 06:28:22 am »

Last adventure mode i played was 31.xx and there once i finally found all iron armor pieces from various merchants (human civs that don't have iron - suckage) and i got my shield to a decent lvl i was invulnerable the only thing that could kill me were non-organic megabeasts the main difficult part was the start when you have to kill bandits so you could sell their clothes money, is the same true in 34.xx?
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k9wazere

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2012, 06:36:13 am »

Last adventure mode i played was 31.xx and there once i finally found all iron armor pieces from various merchants (human civs that don't have iron - suckage) and i got my shield to a decent lvl i was invulnerable the only thing that could kill me were non-organic megabeasts the main difficult part was the start when you have to kill bandits so you could sell their clothes money, is the same true in 34.xx?

No. Arrows can penetrate any armour, even steel or better.

Also a badger can kick you in the head, bypassing your armour, and jamming your skull through your brain for an instant death.
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Monk321654

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2012, 06:53:04 am »

Arrows can penetrate any armour, even steel or better.

Also a badger can kick you in the head, bypassing your armour, and jamming your skull through your brain for an instant death.

This is the stuff the OP is talking about.
Bullshit.

Some gopher can try to eat you, and it might win.
Not everyone wants to play as the Meta Guy, training up ridiculous amounts of skills like throwing and ambushing because they know that's all that matters.
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Trif

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2012, 07:38:30 am »

@k9wazere

Hmm, I see, you've got different expectations of the game. If you like to be the glorious leader in shining armor, invincible and infallible; Dwarf Fortress might be the wrong game for you indeed.
As you may know, Adventurer Mode is some sort of roguelike, so your adventurers are expected to have a few roguish qualities. Trying to avoid death at any cost is the most important of them. Of course, this might conflict with your image of a hero. In my mind, a hero is vulnerable, but overcomes his weaknesses against the odds.

What you call cowardice, I call strategy. You may not like letting your teammates do the killing, but I think it is basic teamwork. In a real war, no leader would charge into battle at the front lines, because it means almost certain death. That doesn't make him less of a champion, it's just not his task.

Again, this is just my perspective on the issues, and yours isn't better or worse. I also know that not everybody plays Dwarf Fortress like I do, other players somehow manage to play as a badass loner (you may want to PM Loud Whispers for better advice). Modding might be the way to go for you. Maybe you'll like a playable race of Bronze Colossi.

Arrows can penetrate any armour, even steel or better.

Also a badger can kick you in the head, bypassing your armour, and jamming your skull through your brain for an instant death.

This is the stuff the OP is talking about.
Bullshit.

Some gopher can try to eat you, and it might win.
Not everyone wants to play as the Meta Guy, training up ridiculous amounts of skills like throwing and ambushing because they know that's all that matters.
The arrows are just realism. That's basically how they work in real life. I will be the first to admit that they are ridiculous when they break your toe and you pass out, but in my humble opinion, arrows and bolts are manageable as they are now and the realism is appropriate.

Random wildlife killing you in one shot never happened to me as an advanced adventurer. In the beginning, sure, but if you wear a helm and have some combat experience, forest animals aren't an issue.

And, for the record, I never play as the Meta Guy because I hate it. Adventure mode is playable without grinding.
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k9wazere

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2012, 08:05:54 am »

Effectively, unrestricted Save/Load would make me happy.

I don't mind replaying an encounter until my guy is victorious (in most RPGs this is expected). So long as I can play the way I want to (not hiding/throwing which is cheap). And I don't want to waste an hour on each new char wrestling peasants. Been there, done that.
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assasin

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2012, 08:44:04 am »

Quote
Hmm, I see, you've got different expectations of the game. If you like to be the glorious leader in shining armor, invincible and infallible; Dwarf Fortress might be the wrong game for you indeed.
As you may know, Adventurer Mode is some sort of roguelike, so your adventurers are expected to have a few roguish qualities. Trying to avoid death at any cost is the most important of them. Of course, this might conflict with your image of a hero. In my mind, a hero is vulnerable, but overcomes his weaknesses against the odds.

I'd take jorg ancrath every time. or in more understandable terms [if you don't read much], vampire blood and straight to a necrotower for me.
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Funk

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2012, 09:23:09 am »

arrows and bolts need there impact foce turning down abit,it is just not fun haveing them act like some kind of  bone brakeing rail gun.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Broseph Stalin

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Re: Realism vs fun (ordinary fun)
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2012, 09:36:52 am »

I like the realism, the fear that every round of combat may be the last round adds an intensity to the fighting. There are definitely some balance problems (fuck archers) but I don't think that makes it irredeemable.
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