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Author Topic: Atheism/Religion Discussion  (Read 184213 times)

MagmaMcFry

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1590 on: December 21, 2012, 07:07:22 am »

Okay Wolfy, here's a few questions.
Could you write a program that simulates the universe given a copy of the laws of physics and a programming tutorial?
Could God have written a program that simulates the universe?
Let's say you write a program that simulates a universe (and you definitely don't need to be omniscient to do that), and get a list of all coordinates of all particles at every point in time. Could you look at this list and find out if there were humans in the universe or not?
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Wolfy

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1591 on: December 21, 2012, 07:14:08 am »


Quote
Okay Wolfy, here's a few questions.
Could you write a program that simulates the universe given a copy of the laws of physics and a programming tutorial?
simulates? yeah, but god did it for real, I could write a program that lets me control dwarfs, it dont mean anything.
just becuse we can simulate something means nothing, making it for real is whole no the ball game
and we can only do it by follow what hs alredy been done and we STILL dont know half of what gose on so as we go on, we will found our simulation si more and more wrong, can you guess what it will be in 2000 years?
Could God have written a program that simulates the universe?
Quote
Let's say you write a program that simulates a universe (and you definitely don't need to be omniscient to do that), and get a list of all coordinates of all particles at every point in time. Could you look at this list and find out if there were humans in the universe or not?
Whats this got to do with anything?
I'm not following, could I? I would not know, it would take forever, could God? he dont need to look at a list.
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cerapa

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1592 on: December 21, 2012, 07:26:15 am »

We dont know what a soul is, we dont know what type it is. so no you cant say it would be, becuse first we haveto know what it is and see it happen and we have not
May I request some definitions for everything being discussed? Especially with the souls bit here, because its sorta disconcerting for me to see arguing over a topic which you just stated that you havent actually defined as anything.

Honestly, if you dont know what something looks like, what it does or what it is, then what is even the point of using the word, if it doesnt mean anything?

If this was discussed earlier, would someone please point this out to me? I looked through the last couple of pages, but didnt find anything particularly clear, and Wolfys writing doesnt allow me to read through more, or to read very carefully(just a fact, no offense intended).
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Wolfy

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1593 on: December 21, 2012, 07:38:14 am »

the bible mentions souls, it never says if souls are or are not tang label, or if they are light, if they are "Spirts" or if they are bunnys, we cant define them cause we dont know about them, so I'm not sure what you want...

Do you not know what the idea of a "soul" is or do you need a definition for another reasson


best I can give you, your soul is more or less "you" its not part of your physical body in the sense when you die it gose on and most belive its your soul hat gose to heaven

We dont know enough about the souls, its kind of like asking someone form the 1930's to describe the moon.

I dont describe it cause I cant, just like I cant describe God, or hevean they are FAR beyond my limiited understanding
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cerapa

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1594 on: December 21, 2012, 08:05:10 am »

Well the thing is, you can define the moon according to its features. Basically "A large body in the sky that is most visible at night and is sorta grey and yellow." and then you add onto that whenever you learn something new, like lunar cycles or what its made of. You can get lunar cycles from analyzing when it is visible, and you can analyze the colour for at least a semblance of knowledge amout what its made of.

Just say whatever features you know that they have, and then you can have a discussion from that.

So, a soul is something that does not require a physical body, and contains the mind(I assume thats what you mean by the "you"). "physical body" is a bit of a fuzzy concept so lets go from the mind bit.

There are couple of mechanisms by which something could contain a mind. The 2 that immediately spring to mind is 1) The soul leads the body. 2) The soul is attached to the mind, and mirrors any changes that the physi cal body goes through and decouples at death, but does not actually affect anything.

1) Has the interface implication, which is that if something affects the physical, it is measurable. This interface has been looked for by a shitton of people, but there really havent been any findings.
2) Has the problem of being untestable, so it is inherently pointless as a source of discussion. Unknowables are no fun.

Souls are a bit of a dead end IMO for discussions. What about god, what can you tell me?
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1595 on: December 21, 2012, 09:07:57 am »


Quote
Okay Wolfy, here's a few questions.
Could you write a program that simulates the universe given a copy of the laws of physics and a programming tutorial?
simulates? yeah, but god did it for real, I could write a program that lets me control dwarfs, it dont mean anything.
just becuse we can simulate something means nothing, making it for real is whole no the ball game
and we can only do it by follow what hs alredy been done and we STILL dont know half of what gose on so as we go on, we will found our simulation si more and more wrong, can you guess what it will be in 2000 years?
Could God have written a program that simulates the universe?
Quote
Let's say you write a program that simulates a universe (and you definitely don't need to be omniscient to do that), and get a list of all coordinates of all particles at every point in time. Could you look at this list and find out if there were humans in the universe or not?
Whats this got to do with anything?
I'm not following, could I? I would not know, it would take forever, could God? he dont need to look at a list.

Well, Wolfy, my point is that if you had the complete laws of physics available to you (even those who aren't discovered yet), a computer with really much memory, and a bit of programming and math skill, you could write a simulation for an universe that is indistinguishable from our own universe, with inhabitants completely unaware that they live in such a simulation. Such a simulation could probably be written in a few hundred lines of code in any major programming language (given the extreme simplicity of the laws of physics), and would require a humanly manageable amount of intelligence.
Now would this programmer care much for the humans that populate his simulation? In fact, he almost certainly wouldn't even know that there were humans living inside his computer, since he never bothered to look. And even if he found an intelligent species using a visualization program (he would probably not find any, since most of space does not contain life), he wouldn't be able to understand them (that would require learning a whole new language or more), much less read their minds, even less manipulate the simulation in such a way as to answer those beings who "somehow" think they know his name. So while it is relatively okay to believe that someone created the universe, it is absolutely not okay to think he is able to care about us.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1596 on: December 21, 2012, 10:06:10 am »

Well, Wolfy, my point is that if you had the complete laws of physics available to you (even those who aren't discovered yet), a computer with really much memory, and a bit of programming and math skill, you could write a simulation for an universe that is indistinguishable from our own universe, with inhabitants completely unaware that they live in such a simulation. Such a simulation could probably be written in a few hundred lines of code in any major programming language (given the extreme simplicity of the laws of physics), and would require a humanly manageable amount of intelligence.
Not really.  It has been shown quite convincingly and from many different angles that it's impossible, even in theory, to predict quantum events accurately (particularly with regards to momentum/position, energy/time and so on).  If such a simulation were possible it would go against the established laws of physics.
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1597 on: December 21, 2012, 10:12:28 am »

Well, let's assume the universe uses a RNG to decide quantum events. Then the programmer simply needs to implement that RNG with the same seed (he has all the universe's specs, remember?) to write a universe implementation.
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Descan

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1598 on: December 21, 2012, 10:16:51 am »

I just want to say there is a difference between the existence of, for example the Abrahamic God, and his worthiness to be worshipped.

I mean, I could, feasibly, believe he exists. I could believe he created the world. That doesn't mean that, with my moral judgement that he presumably gave me, that I would think him to be a good person, or worthy of respect.

And before you say "But God is so much greater than us, he has a higher morality!", why didn't he give us the capability to understand it, to understand why he created a 13 billion year universe but then told us 7 days? To make our universe contain so many ways for us to die, like a gamma ray burst. If I create a species from utter scratch, I wouldn't make them so inferior to myself that they can't understand my morality or plan.

He gave us the capability to understand what we understand and no more, at least for now. Why does he judge us based on that? I am no more capable of believing in my heart that he exists, based on the evidence before me, than I am of flying naked without a plane. And yet he supposedly judges me to punish me for eternity for that.

And that whole "judgement for eternity" thing, what's with that? Why would a deity that sticks you somewhere that you can never change from, can never repent after the fact, make a universe where change is the only constant? That seems a bit silly.

I am what God made me. What I am, is someone incapable of believing God made me.
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Argembarger

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1599 on: December 21, 2012, 10:17:14 am »

To simulate the universe, would you just take a preposterous point-cloud of planck lengths? And update every single point once for every single planck time?

Shit's crazy. Like, loco.

And yeah, not being able to perfectly predict quantum events would render the simulation merely an approximation of the universe. And it would most likely look and behave radically different than the one we're in.

Well, let's assume the universe uses a RNG to decide quantum events. Then the programmer simply needs to implement that RNG with the same seed (he has all the universe's specs, remember?) to write a universe implementation.

But, it isn't just flat-out random. Unless you're saying that everything in the universe is being constantly "observed" all the time by virtue of the fact that it's being tracked by a simulation.

EDIT: Actually, yeah, now that I think about it, if you kept in memory every single planck length of the universe with every single physical property attached to it or affecting it, you would require a memory bank that is many orders of magnitude larger than the universe it would be simulating. Unless you start approximating this stuff on a macro level, in which case it's not going to be a good enough simulation.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 10:28:40 am by Argembarger »
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RedKing

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1600 on: December 21, 2012, 10:42:54 am »

Mostly stayed out of these kind of discussions, but I'm feeling philosophical today (I blame the Mayans).

The way that I've syncretized science and Taoism is that "the Tao" is essentially the combination of physics and determinism. It is the pattern of the universe, the natural cycles of the world, including even the birth and death of stars, orbital mechanics, etc.

It views the world as a homeostatic system--essentially, as long as we don't fuck it up trying to intervene, the universe will regulate itself.
It's not unlike the Christian assertion that there is a "divine plan" behind everything that happens, only in Taoism the plan isn't tied to any sort of sentience or "intelligent design". There's a reason for everything (often unknowable from our limited vantage-point). But that doesn't mean it's a logical reason, more like chaos theory.

One of the core ideas of Taoism is one that Kurt Vonnegut summed up as "the problem with humans is our damn big brains". Because out of all animals we're uniquely able to construct social conventions and assign abstract values to things that wouldn't naturally exist otherwise, we subject ourselves to emotional anguish unknown in the rest of existence. We spend arduous hours of labor, we lie and cheat and steal and kill...all for something that has little inherent value. Or as Douglas Adams put it,
Quote
This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

In a lot of ways, Taoism was the rebellion and reaction to Confucianism. Confucians said people are basically bad, and you need lots of rules to make sure everyone does what they need to, and if everyone would just follow the rules everything would be fine.

Taoism said people are basically people, neither inherently good nor evil, and that the rules were the damn problem. The more laws you make, the more criminals you make. The more wealth you hoard, the more you have to worry about it being stolen. The more you deny your inner self, the more stress you cause by trying to "fit" the mold society is trying to impose on you. Confucianism frowned on alcohol, because it caused "improper behavior". Taoism celebrated being tipsy (not staggering drunk...excess is frowned upon), because it helped you to shed all these social inhibitions and be your true self.

The end goal is to be happy in this life, because there is no guarantee of anything beyond. And the way to that happiness is to learn to simply be. I always use the example of a deer. The deer doesn't sit around and worry about being the fastest or strongest deer, it doesn't worry what its deer friends say behind its back, it doesn't fret that someone is nibbling all that grass it wanted, etc. Most importantly, it doesn't try to be a deer. It just is. The problem is that as humans who have lost that natural ability to just be, we have to try to get back to that. And in the act of trying, we're not being natural. (Which brings up the whole concept of wu wei, or "acting without acting"). It's like seeing something out of the corner of your eye...if you look directly at it, it's gone. You have to learn to just be without trying. To accept whatever comes, to be content, to find your happiness in existence itself.

It ain't easy, and I'm far from good at it. But it's rung true to me for 20+ years now.

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MagmaMcFry

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1601 on: December 21, 2012, 10:44:37 am »

And yeah, not being able to perfectly predict quantum events would render the simulation merely an approximation of the universe. And it would most likely look and behave radically different than the one we're in.

We're only unable to perfectly predict quantum events from inside our own universe because we have incomplete specs and data, also imperfect measuring capability. Since the simulation has complete data, it can find out which quantum state will be observed.

EDIT: Actually, yeah, now that I think about it, if you kept in memory every single planck length of the universe with every single physical property attached to it or affecting it, you would require a memory bank that is many orders of magnitude larger than the universe it would be simulating. Unless you start approximating this stuff on a macro level, in which case it's not going to be a good enough simulation.

Well, I never said that the universe simulation had to run inside the universe itself. Also, since it is possible to calculate the algorithm's error margin, and since it is possible to push this error margin arbitrarily low by adding numerical precision and reducing granularity, you can approximate the universe arbitrarily closely, until it is indistinguishable from the universe itself.
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inteuniso

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1602 on: December 21, 2012, 11:08:02 am »

Here is my major problem with atheism: if you don't combine it with any philosophy such as humanism, you end up with people who care more about themselves than others.

Religion, at it's heart, is about combining faith and reason. It is a set of moral codes based on communal beliefs(faith) combined with stories explaining natural phenomena (reason).

If you abandon faith, you're going to become a bitter person. You see the logical side of things, the pessimist's (realist's) side. But if you continue to see beauty in the everyday world, the beauty in life itself, then you will still have happiness.

I strongly believe in science. I believe science can, and will, explain all natural phenomena. I also believe, however, that science will never be able to give you the experience of standing next to a river, fishing for trout. It will never give you the experience of being in another's arms. It will never give you the experience of triumph, of overcoming significant odds to achieve victory.

Experience can be explained by science. But science should never be used to replace the experience.
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Graknorke

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1603 on: December 21, 2012, 11:11:57 am »

I strongly believe in science. I believe science can, and will, explain all natural phenomena. I also believe, however, that science will never be able to give you the experience of standing next to a river, fishing for trout. It will never give you the experience of being in another's arms. It will never give you the experience of triumph, of overcoming significant odds to achieve victory.
I disagree.
You do not have to believe in god or whatever to do things or appreciate things.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1604 on: December 21, 2012, 11:17:22 am »

There's a tvtropes page and a xkcd for this. I'll find the former and entrust someone else with the latter.
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