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[Angle]

I wouldn't say that Catholicism is discriminated against - not anymore, at least.

[GlyphGryph]

If we decide to define "Universe" in a different way, my approach still holds - it just means it's definitions shift appropriately. In this case, we could say we are in a created simulation, rather than a universe, if you prefer.

Oh no it doesn’t.

Your argument depends upon calling arbitrary phenomena “universes”. If we call them simulations...

We know [simulations] are capable of creating additional less complex [simulations] through the intentional actions of sapient species. We know that the [simulations] we know about that has created sub-[simulations] has created many.

It stands to reason, then, that most [simulations] are artificial, and thus have deities - a race with a member or members responsible for the [simulation]’s creation.

...then you would have to first assume that this is a simulation.

I'm... really not sure what you're point is here. Whether you call them artificial universes or simulations doesn't matter - we're more likely to be in one of those whatever-you-call-its than the products of a natural universe (though obviously we would at some point be contained within a natural universe, unless it's turtles all the way down). That was the whole point of what I said. Whether you want to consider the entirety of all our physical laws, space, time, energy and every one of the products thereof of a "universe" or not is still just semantics and up to you. But that's what I'm talking about - the rules of our reality that govern our reality, and the "stuff" that results from them. That's what most people think of as a universe, in my understanding. Something like Conway's Game of Life has it's own all of those things quite distinct from our own in this universe/simulation.

All Askot’s response means is that, when you talk about “universes”, you’re talking about layers of abstraction over a base set of rules. It’s all the same set of rules operating on the same set of stuff.

I'm sorry... what? I'm really not following here. You're arguing the same rules that govern the interaction of the primary components in the Game of Life are the same rules that govern the primary components here? Or that our rules somehow govern them? Because I'm not seeing how that works.

[Fenrir]

I’ll answer some time in the next 48 hours to give myself ample time to compose an explanation that will, perhaps, not confuse further.

[Muz]

I would like a religious person to tell me why they believe in their chosen god.

Because I get everything I prayed for. I was once in the middle of a desert, had a craving for a banana, so I made a lengthy sincere prayer for a banana. The next day, someone gave me a banana. I get about 90% of the things I pray for, and the rest can be classified as pending.

If it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, I'd rather live on prayer placebos than have it fail out of disbelief.

Because there's nothing disproving it.

Because of Pascal's Wager.

So, one of the major criticisms of Pascal's Wager is that belief in religion is to a minor disadvantage to the individual and a major disadvantage to society. But the society I live in is greatly enhanced by religion - lots of people sharing their wealth, giving aid and education to the poor, flooding donations in the name of God to disaster victims. No disadvantages; things like stem cell research is on full steam (with a lot of highly religious people participating), and there are no restrictions on alcohol or pork or whatever.

The only time when followed my religious principles strictly, rather than relying on someone else's interpretations, they went from a single city state to an empire in 29 years. Whether that's a consequence of a lot of collective prayer or principles applied or just plain hard work and motivation, it works for me.

[Grek]

Where do you live where that happens?

[Micro102]

I would like a religious person to tell me why they believe in their chosen god.

Because I get everything I prayed for. I was once in the middle of a desert, had a craving for a banana, so I made a lengthy sincere prayer for a banana. The next day, someone gave me a banana. I get about 90% of the things I pray for, and the rest can be classified as pending.

If it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, I'd rather live on prayer placebos than have it fail out of disbelief.

Because there's nothing disproving it.

Because of Pascal's Wager.

So, one of the major criticisms of Pascal's Wager is that belief in religion is to a minor disadvantage to the individual and a major disadvantage to society. But the society I live in is greatly enhanced by religion - lots of people sharing their wealth, giving aid and education to the poor, flooding donations in the name of God to disaster victims. No disadvantages; things like stem cell research is on full steam (with a lot of highly religious people participating), and there are no restrictions on alcohol or pork or whatever.

The only time when followed my religious principles strictly, rather than relying on someone else's interpretations, they went from a single city state to an empire in 29 years. Whether that's a consequence of a lot of collective prayer or principles applied or just plain hard work and motivation, it works for me.

Well for one thing, none of the good things you have mentioned are special to religion. Everything can be done be secular means as well. How has religion enhanced these things? Was there no religion beforehand? And while I'm glad wherever you are from has such open minded religious people, it more then likely they are so open minded because they do not actually follow their holy book and are "insert religion here" only in name.

Secondly, try praying for all pain, hunger, disease, and death in Africa to go away. Bet you it won't. Despite the millions that probably do pray for it. But nope....God is too busy getting you a banana. I think you get why I don't think prayer works.

And finally, ignorance is bliss, but the truth will set you free. Relying on prayer to get everything for you will cause technology to stagnate. Religion hasn't provided any benefit to humanity.

[Realmfighter]

People who are already empathetic to human suffering give to charity without having to believe in God. "Gods word" means whatever you damn well want it too and charity is only required if you are already the kind of person who things charity should be required. But then on the other side whenever someone holds an opinion that's simultaneously massively hateful and illogical from a secular standpoint they can hold onto it completely by just saying the magic words "God said so".

[10ebbor10]

I would like a religious person to tell me why they believe in their chosen god.

Because I get everything I prayed for. I was once in the middle of a desert, had a craving for a banana, so I made a lengthy sincere prayer for a banana. The next day, someone gave me a banana. I get about 90% of the things I pray for, and the rest can be classified as pending.

If it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, I'd rather live on prayer placebos than have it fail out of disbelief.

Because there's nothing disproving it.

Because of Pascal's Wager.

So, one of the major criticisms of Pascal's Wager is that belief in religion is to a minor disadvantage to the individual and a major disadvantage to society. But the society I live in is greatly enhanced by religion - lots of people sharing their wealth, giving aid and education to the poor, flooding donations in the name of God to disaster victims. No disadvantages; things like stem cell research is on full steam (with a lot of highly religious people participating), and there are no restrictions on alcohol or pork or whatever.

The only time when followed my religious principles strictly, rather than relying on someone else's interpretations, they went from a single city state to an empire in 29 years. Whether that's a consequence of a lot of collective prayer or principles applied or just plain hard work and motivation, it works for me.

Well for one thing, none of the good things you have mentioned are special to religion. Everything can be done be secular means as well. How has religion enhanced these things? Was there no religion beforehand? And while I'm glad wherever you are from has such open minded religious people, it more then likely they are so open minded because they do not actually follow their holy book and are "insert religion here" only in name.

Secondly, try praying for all pain, hunger, disease, and death in Africa to go away. Bet you it won't. Despite the millions that probably do pray for it. But nope....God is too busy getting you a banana. I think you get why I don't think prayer works.

And finally, ignorance is bliss, but the truth will set you free. Relying on prayer to get everything for you will cause technology to stagnate. Religion hasn't provided any benefit to humanity.

See, a problem with most Atheists is that they too think that the evangelist / fundamentalist/ ... intrepretations are the only correct ones. Again, they seem to think that science and religion are mutually exclusive, that they are succesive phases in a search for knowledge. Everyone who doesn't agree with them is not a true [Insert Religion Here]. Probably this happens because of the fact that we're mostly dealing with Americans here, where there's a greater animosity between theists and atheists.

The fact that everything can be done through secular means is not an argument against religion. The fact that he got his banana is not because [Insert Diety here] gave him one from Heaven, but because someone else did so, while being motivated by his scriptures. Many religions don't preach the existence of an almighty diety doing everything for you, but an image from an ideal society. Some even say that the insights to be gotten from that are so refreshing, that they must have come from a higher being. Wherether that's true or not, I dunno?

Secondly, now that we're talking about Africa. There's hundreds thousands of missionaries there, trying to make the place better. With small expense, the situation could be dramitically improved, but it's not done because everyone wants his things cheap. Besides, it's not like science is so clean too. Look at Taylorism and see what it did to workers in the 19^the century. And is still doing today, in many countries.

People who are already empathetic to human suffering give to charity without having to believe in God. "Gods word" means whatever you damn well want it too and charity is only required if you are already the kind of person who things charity should be required. But then on the other side whenever someone holds an opinion that's simultaneously massively hateful and illogical from a secular standpoint they can hold onto it completely by just saying the magic words "God said so".

They can? Religion is just an excuse here, it's not at fault. People can find many more reasons to justify their opinion if need be. Taking away the excuse of religion would not solve nor aid to solve the problem.

Where do you live where that happens?

The part of the world that is not America? Really, if you look around you find that the fundies account for only a small fraction of the religious population. Like 5-10% or so.

[Muz]

Where do you live where that happens?

Malaysia. I'm pretty sure it happens a lot in other countries too; I know a lot of the Muslim community in Australia were like that too. It's all about religious tolerance.

..it more then likely they are so open minded because they do not actually follow their holy book and are "insert religion here" only in name.

If they weren't open minded, then they would be going against the book.

Religious tolerance is a commandment. Insulting other people's religions is a sin. Forcing others to accept your way is a sin.

Relying on prayer to get everything for you will cause technology to stagnate. Religion hasn't provided any benefit to humanity.

That's a bold statement to make. I've never seen religion actually stagnate anything (aside from maybe in the US). I suspect you're just taking pot shots at Christian conservatives/traditionalists.

At the very least it does provide an incentive for people to do good, charities, etc. Of course, you can say that there are lots of atheists who do good, and there are, but a direct incentive amplifies the effect. Most good hearted people won't donate half their wealth to a stranger, but someone promised 700 times the return would be exceedingly generous.

There are plenty of very intelligent, ivy league educated, absolutely non-secular people. Islam strongly encourages people to learn, even considering it an act of jihad. Muhammad himself used to pray for knowledge. After prayer comes action, because while prayer is strongly encouraged, it's always been looked down upon to pray for something and not act on it.

[Scoops Novel]

Though it's a question that often evokes an instant yes or no from many, if the majority of the people in the world were Atheist rather then then the other way round, would the world be any different? Or better? I'm inclined to go with humans are humans, but slightly thanks to the encouragement of taking a logical approach.

[10ebbor10]

Though it's a question that often evokes an instant yes or no from many, if the majority of the people in the world were Atheist rather then then the other way round, would the world be any different? Or better? I'm inclined to go with humans are humans, but slightly thanks to the encouragement of taking a logical approach.

It wouldn't. Humans are humans. They'd find another excuse to justify their hate.

[Owlbread]

I would like a religious person to tell me why they believe in their chosen god.

Because I get everything I prayed for. I was once in the middle of a desert, had a craving for a banana, so I made a lengthy sincere prayer for a banana. The next day, someone gave me a banana. I get about 90% of the things I pray for, and the rest can be classified as pending.

If it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, I'd rather live on prayer placebos than have it fail out of disbelief.

Because there's nothing disproving it.

Because of Pascal's Wager.

So, one of the major criticisms of Pascal's Wager is that belief in religion is to a minor disadvantage to the individual and a major disadvantage to society. But the society I live in is greatly enhanced by religion - lots of people sharing their wealth, giving aid and education to the poor, flooding donations in the name of God to disaster victims. No disadvantages; things like stem cell research is on full steam (with a lot of highly religious people participating), and there are no restrictions on alcohol or pork or whatever.

The only time when followed my religious principles strictly, rather than relying on someone else's interpretations, they went from a single city state to an empire in 29 years. Whether that's a consequence of a lot of collective prayer or principles applied or just plain hard work and motivation, it works for me.

Most things I've prayed for I haven't gotten.

[Scoops Novel]

As have i. Funny how Empires get made through raping and pillaging, isn't it.

[GlyphGryph]

Secondly, now that we're talking about Africa. There's hundreds thousands of missionaries there, trying to make the place better.

Hahah. You didn't write this seriously, did you? Because missionaries are (almost without exception) seriously like the most terrible people imaginable, and (generally) engage in doing terrible, destructive, unforgiveable things, and African missionaries (in particular) are renowned for, on average, being the worst of the worst. I'm certainly not one of those folks who's hostile to religion in general, but if you are going to start extolling the virtues of THAT particular for for destruction, I think we might have to part ways.

[10ebbor10]

Secondly, now that we're talking about Africa. There's hundreds thousands of missionaries there, trying to make the place better.

Hahah. You didn't write this seriously, did you? Because missionaries are (almost without exception) seriously like the most terrible people imaginable, and (generally) engage in doing terrible, destructive, unforgiveable things, and African missionaries (in particular) are renowned for, on average, being the worst of the worst. I'm certainly not one of those folks who's hostile to religion in general, but if you are going to start extolling the virtues of THAT particular for for destruction, I think we might have to part ways.

I'd like to see you back that up. I've met several missionaries, and generally they're doing good work.