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Author Topic: Atheism/Religion Discussion  (Read 184690 times)

Eagle_eye

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #585 on: August 16, 2012, 09:16:20 pm »

I've got three for you, right here off of wikipedia: (1) that there is an objective reality shared by all rational observers; (2) that this objective reality is governed by natural laws; (3) that these laws can be discovered by means of systematic observation and experimentation. ;)
Those all seem perfectly falsifiable to me.  IE, if they were dramatically wrong we'd discover pretty quickly when none of our predictions work.

No, because there's always the possibility that we simply got the laws wrong if that happens, and it could always be random chance when they do work.
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Fenrir

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #586 on: August 16, 2012, 09:40:56 pm »

Remember kids: whenever you necro a topic, Jesus eats someones fa—AAAARRGH!
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #587 on: August 16, 2012, 09:51:07 pm »

Since when was five days a necro?
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Fenrir

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #588 on: August 16, 2012, 09:53:55 pm »

Temporarily forgot what month it is.
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Bauglir

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #589 on: August 17, 2012, 12:35:26 am »

Temporarily forgot what month it is.
It's still January, right?
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Cthulhu

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #590 on: August 17, 2012, 12:44:51 am »

Yes, we all have to presuppose things that we can't quite know for sure or things quickly dissolve into navel-gazing bullshit.  While we aren't positive that truth is objective and shared by all observers we have no reason to think it isn't and we can't exactly work without it.

The big thing is the nature of your presuppositions, specifically in the naturalism and parsimony ballparks.  Contrast the scientist's "There is an objective reality shared by all observers" with the apologist's "An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being made everything"
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Graknorke

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #591 on: August 17, 2012, 03:10:49 am »

"An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being made everything"

I am sorry but this is absolutely impossible to be traits all possessed by any god, given the condition of the world right now. It could only be two of them maximum. Someone wrote a thing about it but I forgot.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #592 on: August 17, 2012, 04:17:22 am »

Depends how you define "benevolent." There are plenty of ways to have all three, just that they all require God's morality to be different/superior/whatever to your own.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Osmosis Jones

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #593 on: August 17, 2012, 04:29:05 am »

"An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being made everything"

I am sorry but this is absolutely impossible to be traits all possessed by any god, given the condition of the world right now. It could only be two of them maximum. Someone wrote a thing about it but I forgot.

His name was Epicurus, and the argument is known as the problem of evil.

In pictorial form.
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Frumple

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #594 on: August 17, 2012, 07:55:14 am »

Depends how you define "benevolent." There are plenty of ways to have all three, just that they all require God's morality to be different/superior/whatever to your own.
Yeah... the fun one for me went thusly: In order to be omnibenevolent, the argument held, God must maximally possess the most fundamental good, i.e. that good which enables all other goods. That which enables all other goods (or to be more accurate, all things, period) is existence -- a thing must be before it can be something. Therefore the good of God -- the maximal, fundamental, good possessed by the divine -- is existence. In modern parlance, God is the fundamental particle (if we ever actually find it). Medieval theologians (or at least they're the ones I first ran into that were using this line of argument) basically stated omnibenevolence meant hardcore materialism -- the good of God is the good of existence -- and it gave me the giggles.

It also meant that the omnibenevolence of god is logically equal to omnipresence -- saying that "God is good" had the same meaning as saying "God is existent". All good, all existent, etc.

It was a neat and hilariously irreverent trick. "We'e got problems with the divine not matching with human morality! Let's define divine morality as something categorically different from human morality! No one will notice~" Which, being fair, no one really did for a while :P It's always been a good trick, if one that gets you smacked upside the head if you try it in a decent academic discussion. "I'm not talking about X, I'm talking about X, see? Yes, they're the exact same word, used in the exact same context, and generally kinda' insinuated to mean something similar, but they're actually completely different and utterly unconnected. Neat, huh? Solves alla d'problems!" And then your skull gets beat like a drum at a bongo festival, as it right and proper.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #595 on: August 17, 2012, 08:39:21 am »

Personally, I think of any deities god or gods did exist, they'd probably have the same attitude toward humanity as Dwarf Fortress players have to their dwarves.

"Hey, look at this one writhe in pain! He totally just caught a horrific disease. Haha, this universe is awesome."
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Prometheusmfd

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #596 on: August 17, 2012, 08:44:43 am »

Personally, I think of any deities god or gods did exist, they'd probably have the same attitude toward humanity as Dwarf Fortress players have to their dwarves.

"Hey, look at this one writhe in pain! He totally just caught a horrific disease. Haha, this universe is awesome."

Wasn't there a fan theory that the player WAS Armok?
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I just googled that phrase and found nothing. Congratulations, those three words in that order have never been typed into the googleable internet before! Until now.

kaijyuu

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #597 on: August 17, 2012, 08:47:21 am »

I'm pretty sure that's canon by this point.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Graknorke

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #598 on: August 17, 2012, 10:29:56 am »

I'm pretty sure that's canon by this point.
Nompe, players are canon nobles. Toady said so somewhere I think. But you don't have to after all.

`"'Never trust anybody who uses quotes' I forgot who said this"` - Some guy who works on Gorillaz I think` - TvTropes.
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brainfreez

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #599 on: August 17, 2012, 10:37:06 am »

actually player is a noble .
or Armok controlling the highest rank noble in the fort .
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Sleyerhero90 : You're battle-rapping with a guy who supported THE SAME FREAKING GUY YOU DO!
Breainfreez : wait .... really ?
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