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Author Topic: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)  (Read 407186 times)

monk12

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #360 on: July 11, 2013, 10:06:45 am »

No grid or map. Group battles (12 or more foes, I'm thinking) would be 3-5 turns if you were ready for it, and a tough boss fight could be 7~ turns easily.

Hmm. That's a tough combination (many foes, strategic combat, no map), but only because it's one I haven't done before. I'll look into it.
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monk12

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #361 on: July 11, 2013, 02:02:02 pm »

Thats sort of what I meant. But the thing I'm having a hard time with is: what sorts of stats would they have? I mean I'd want to implement reach, blocking ability, weight, and sharpness. Thats what I need help with. And I'd want separate fighting mechanics for fighting groups of mooks and one-on-one'ing the blademaster heading them.
No grid or map. Group battles (12 or more foes, I'm thinking) would be 3-5 turns if you were ready for it, and a tough boss fight could be 7~ turns easily.



First question to address is what, exactly, the player is.

After all, the point of swinging swords is to kill the guy holding the sword. For this purpose, I'm slapping in the GMWS, my own adaptation of the Gatleos Western Standard Wound System. If you aren't familiar with it, it's a common format for handling injuries down in the RTD board. The short version is that it tracks severe damage to limbs and things, and bleeding to death is common.

Spoiler: GMWS (click to show/hide)

Okay, so we've established that players are things with HP and limbs to impair, and you can bleed them to death. They also need a Balance stat. Balance serves a couple different functions.

1) Balance is initiative. Whoever has the highest balance in a fight is able to act faster than anyone else; they act first.

2) Balance is mana. Well, not literally mana, but it serves the same purpose. Balance is a finite (but renewable) resource used to initiate Sword Forms (more on those later.)


Cool, let's talk swords.

Spoiler: Sword Stats (click to show/hide)
Neat, but how does combat actually work?


That's all very chaotic and dependent on random chance; aspiring blademasters do not rely on such things. They are trained in the Forms of the Sword, a series of choreographed movements and maneuvers that are intended to be adapted as tactics in battle. Sword Forms are intentional movements that achieve a specific outcome; in effect, they are combo attacks that can deal damage, restore Balance, alter the engagement range, or any number of other things.

If a blademaster were to fight a thug, the Sword Forms would help him greatly, even if the thug moved first. Sword Forms are declared before any attacks occur; often this has an immediate Balance cost to initiate the maneuver, and may also give the wielder immediate bonuses (Sword Forms intended to ward ambushes often immediately increase Defense, for example.) The thug's attack is resolved the same as if he were attacking another thug, and if hits, then good for him. When the blademaster attacks, however, he uses the template described in his Sword Form. Often this results in multiple attacks (of the same dice + Balance vs dice + Defense) with different outcomes depending on what the result of the attack is.

Let's look at an example Sword Form before continuing.

Spoiler:  Sample Sword Form (click to show/hide)

Now let's look at an example attack with this Sword Form.

Spoiler: Sample combat round (click to show/hide)

As you can see, a single untrained opponent picking a fight with a Blademaster is just an elaborate form of suicide. Really, the thugs only have a prayer if the Blademaster is still in training (and thus doesn't have a wide plethora of Sword Forms to utilize) and if they also attack in a group, thus guaranteeing at least some of them will have a favorable attack range and forcing the Blademaster-in-training to utilize more defensive Sword Forms.

The fun begins when two Blademasters duel. Many Sword Forms are designed to counter specific other Sword Forms, either by providing additional benefits (often the only Immediate Effect a Sword Form has,) providing a way to interrupt the other Form, by launching an immediate counterattack when the other Sword Form has resolved (which may be as varied as any other Sword Form phase,) or some combination of the three.



Spoiler: Final Thoughts (click to show/hide)

hoo dang I wrote a lot there. Hopefully I don't think it's all garbage when I come back to look in an hour. Threw some spoilers in there to keep it from hogging the page.

Parsely

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #362 on: July 11, 2013, 02:14:28 pm »

This is gorgeous. Now excuse me, I need to stare at it for a few more hours so I can actually digest all those rules. Thats a bloody good system you've come up with there, though. You should be proud!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 02:16:57 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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freeformschooler

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #363 on: July 11, 2013, 02:29:22 pm »

Damn, that's pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking but way better. GJ monk.
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monk12

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #364 on: July 11, 2013, 02:56:43 pm »

Thanks for the kind words. This is actually a system I've been working on for a while with the intent to put it in a videogame someday; I've just adapted it to a forum game compatible format. There's still some evidence of that origin in the rules, which is why I think there's still some small room to improve things beyond what I mentioned as being framework.

Anywho, if there's anything you want to discuss/don't like/don't understand about it, feel free to shout out. And if you use a form of this for your game, please let me know so I can spy on how well it works!

Parsely

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #365 on: July 11, 2013, 03:04:55 pm »

Thanks for the kind words. This is actually a system I've been working on for a while with the intent to put it in a videogame someday; I've just adapted it to a forum game compatible format. There's still some evidence of that origin in the rules, which is why I think there's still some small room to improve things beyond what I mentioned as being framework.

Anywho, if there's anything you want to discuss/don't like/don't understand about it, feel free to shout out. And if you use a form of this for your game, please let me know so I can spy on how well it works!
Can you replenish your balance in the middle of the battle? What happens if you run out of balance in the middle of a fight? Is there a way to cut out limb damage and simply replace it with healthy, wounded or dead, samurai style, where fights end in one or two strokes? I'd like to make combat extremely fatal.
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Digital Hellhound

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #366 on: July 11, 2013, 03:17:08 pm »

While it looks amazing, I think the real fun would begin at describing the swordfighting and cutting-to-ribbons. Or just at naming Sword Forms.
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Parsely

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #367 on: July 11, 2013, 03:29:03 pm »

While it looks amazing, I think the real fun would begin at describing the swordfighting and cutting-to-ribbons. Or just at naming Sword Forms.
Sword Forms are the part that I'm the most worried about. Not sure if I could come up with sufficiently hilarious and/or awesome names for them. But the gibbing I can handle.
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kj1225

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #368 on: July 11, 2013, 03:33:58 pm »

Try seventh sanctum if you need anything involving swords.
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Remuthra

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #369 on: July 11, 2013, 03:35:55 pm »

While it looks amazing, I think the real fun would begin at describing the swordfighting and cutting-to-ribbons. Or just at naming Sword Forms.
Sword Forms are the part that I'm the most worried about. Not sure if I could come up with sufficiently hilarious and/or awesome names for them. But the gibbing I can handle.
I can help with that if need be ;D.

Sword Form: Superior Tactics-
Burgeoned by the power of Superior Tactical Skill, you receive a burst of focus. Choose a target. You can make three attacks on the target per turn at a -1 penalty to hit (Because you're performing the exact same strike over and over again) until you do something else.

The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman! The swordsman slashes the swordsman!

Digital Hellhound

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #370 on: July 11, 2013, 03:45:46 pm »

I'm sure monk would be okay with just shamelessly ripping off everything WoT has to offer. We'd just call them clever references, naturally.
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monk12

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #371 on: July 11, 2013, 03:50:19 pm »

Thanks for the kind words. This is actually a system I've been working on for a while with the intent to put it in a videogame someday; I've just adapted it to a forum game compatible format. There's still some evidence of that origin in the rules, which is why I think there's still some small room to improve things beyond what I mentioned as being framework.

Anywho, if there's anything you want to discuss/don't like/don't understand about it, feel free to shout out. And if you use a form of this for your game, please let me know so I can spy on how well it works!
Can you replenish your balance in the middle of the battle? What happens if you run out of balance in the middle of a fight? Is there a way to cut out limb damage and simply replace it with healthy, wounded or dead, samurai style, where fights end in one or two strokes? I'd like to make combat extremely fatal.

1) The way I see it, Sword Forms would have a few main purposes. One of them is Balancing; if you get really off-balance during a fight (either from taking damage or expending yourself in a furious attack) you would use a Form that has lots of Balance recover; no or low cost, and two or three Balance boosting phases. As long as I'm on the subject, the other main purposes would be Attacking (Boar Rushes Down the Mountain would be nothing but attack,) Positioning (setting the range to someplace advantageous to yourself,) and Defense (increasing your defense stat against an expected devastating attack.) And then of course you can have a bunch of quirky flavorful Sword Forms depending on tone/magicality of everything, like if you wanted to make your sword fiery through pure will, or whatever.

2) Running out of balance in the middle of the fight means you've probably stumbled and maybe fallen down. You could add rules letting the opponent get free stabs in if you go down to 0, or it could just be "you're really off-balance and need to do a recovery Form to get your mojo back." Or you could go read #3 below.

3) Certainly! Wouldn't be too hard; I'd cut HP and make Balance basically fill that role. Basically, in that case when Balance runs down to 0, you are sufficiently off-guard that the opponent lands a solid blow, wounding you severely. Get hit like that three times, and you're dead. If you go that route, I'd automatically give the wounded party back some Balance; think of it like the sword knocks them back or something, so everyone can dramatically look at the big ol' slash down their side before they get back to it.

It's a good idea for the forum game format, since that lends to shorter combat than the "death by a thousand cuts" thing the original system supported. It also makes the choice of attacking (and leaving your Balance dangerously low) versus defending (less likely to kill the other guy, but less likely to die yourself) a more interesting one.

While it looks amazing, I think the real fun would begin at describing the swordfighting and cutting-to-ribbons. Or just at naming Sword Forms.
Sword Forms are the part that I'm the most worried about. Not sure if I could come up with sufficiently hilarious and/or awesome names for them. But the gibbing I can handle.

Here's a list of the sword forms used in Wheel of Time. They're intended to evoke the movement of the fight, and frequently he describes battles just using combinations of Sword Form names, to avoid bogging down the narrative. Obviously a lot depends on the tone you're shooting for, but it's a place to start, anyway.

The hard part is actually statting all of these Sword Forms; or maybe not hard, but certainly time-consuming and probably tricky to balance. If you're willing to put in the work beforehand though, I bet it'd turn out nice.

EDIT:

I'm sure monk would be okay with just shamelessly ripping off everything WoT has to offer. We'd just call them clever references, naturally.

STOP PREDICTING WHAT I'D DO!

Kadzar

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #372 on: July 11, 2013, 11:38:47 pm »

-snip-
This seems like the beginning of a really interesting combat system, that uses weapon reach in a fun and dynamic way, and would actually allow you to simulate the real-world technique of half-swording. Though I will admit I'm not such a big fan of the HP and wounding system, I think the rest of it shows a lot of promise.

An idea I had for adapting this system to tabletop was that you could simply have the ranges associated with certain numbers (like Close (1), Medium (2), Far (3), ect.) and thereby use a d6 or maybe d4 face up to show the current range, thereby having simple and easy way of noting the current fighting range round-by-round or within the round, and you could put them between different figurines to denote their relative combat spacing.

If you're looking for a different name than sword forms, I can suggest a few alternatives: either just calling them forms (if the compound word seems weird to you), or moves or techniques.

As for the forms themselves, I can imagine all kinds of things like full attacks that can do a lot of damage but offer no movement or balance regain, moves that bring your balance back up don't offer much other benefit, techniques that allow you to move in and out of range with a jab in the middle, maybe some passive ability that give you more defense when someone tries to move into a closer range with you, or maybe a different passive ability that lets you make an opportunity attack when someone moves from a certain range to another, or a form that lets you defend better against opportunity attacks.

I think forms should generally require certain weapons. You might be able to substitute weapons of similar reach, but if the move requires a certain form of shield, a knife, two hands, or a free hand, you'll generally need to provide those to do the move unless there a good substitution rules. And maybe secondary weapons or shields might be used in certain steps of the technique.

Also, you should definitely have some sort of unarmed techniques. Some might involve kicks (this would also be a possibility for some armed techniques) and probably revolve around either getting in and out of range really fast, disarming, or occupying the opponent's weapon somehow to avoid strikes since you'd have nothing to parry with.

If you want to lower the amount of dicerolls, you might possibly want to just have a few steps in the move be compared straight against the enemy's defense, though I would personally first consider if it's really necessary to roll the opponent's defense in the first place, rather than just comparing it to a straight defense value (possibly half the dice's max value plus the usual modifiers). Since balance allows these values to fluctuate on a round-by-round basis, it might even be worthwhile to compare straight values without rolls for certain steps.

And those are my thoughts so far without reading up to your second post yet (which may turn out to totally invalidate all my points or something).

EDIT: Looking at Monk12's second post, it seems he did indeed think of a few of the same types of forms as me, though I did come up with some original ones too. I thought of a few more and some other ideas after reading his post:

So I know proposed using Balance as hitpoints, and that could certainly lend to an interesting style, but I think in a fight actually hits should maybe be somewhat rare, as you have to overcome your opponents defenses, one of which should be a passive parry ability that uses the defender's current balance score. The idea should be that, unlike other games where HP represents depleted luck from near-misses and/or loss of stamina to keep up with constantly avoided blows until you get down to the last few that represent actual flesh and blood damage, here every single wound should represent actual physical damage.

I think some moves should allow you to activate some sorts of stances, or whatever you'd want to call them, that would do various things such as boost your defenses or allow you to perform counter-attacks in certain situations. Thinking about it, maybe there should be certain moves that act as combo moves, being able to be used freely upon successfully executing certain other moves, allowing you to not only change stances but alternatively perform a the equivalent of a single step of a regular move as part your turn (it's possible more steps could be included in a combo, but my gut says a single step is probably a good idea since it's an extra thing). Also, some combos, at least maybe stance combos, might be free to execute (since you have to succeed in another move to use them and you can only have one stance active at once (probably)).

Also, some combos might be what I would call default weapon forms, certain moves that can be used by anyone holding a certain weapon at the time. These would, by design, tend to be less useful, powerful, and varied than those provided by actual fighting schools and styles, since they mostly just simulate the general wild flailing of someone who is unfamiliar with a weapon (though there should be some benefit gained from being a generally competent fighter; probably just the general benefits you gain from having a good balance score). Rather than having forms for each weapon, there would probably be different forms for groups of weapons that behave similarly. In addition, there would also be some sort of default unarmed form that could be used by anyone who finds themselves suddenly unarmed in combat and needs to resort to good of fashioned fisticuffs.

Speaking of unarmed combat, my post original spoke of it in a way that implied use against someone with a weapon. While there should be some styles for that, I think most forms of unarmed combat should probably be devoted to defeating other unarmed combatants (and you should probably have to master one of these styles before you're ready to take on dudes with weapons using only your fists).

Oh, and I also thought of another way to keep track of fighting range: do as before, with numbers denoting the range, but instead of using dice, you can add or subtract a number of glass beads or poker chips or some other easily countable thing.

Alright, that's it for now.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:27:56 am by Kadzar »
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monk12

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #373 on: July 12, 2013, 12:09:12 pm »

This seems like the beginning of a really interesting combat system, that uses weapon reach in a fun and dynamic way, and would actually allow you to simulate the real-world technique of half-swording. Though I will admit I'm not such a big fan of the HP and wounding system, I think the rest of it shows a lot of promise.

Thank you! I'll note that the GMWS is intended as a "plug-and-play" type system to quickly give a starting point. It's usually modified somewhat on a game-by-game basis, and isn't really married to the rest of the combat system. I think GUNINANRUNIN's propsed "healthy/wounded/dead" system would fit the system better, especially for a forum game implementation.

An idea I had for adapting this system to tabletop was that you could simply have the ranges associated with certain numbers (like Close (1), Medium (2), Far (3), ect.) and thereby use a d6 or maybe d4 face up to show the current range, thereby having simple and easy way of noting the current fighting range round-by-round or within the round, and you could put them between different figurines to denote their relative combat spacing.

That's a good idea! A tabletop adaptation would be interesting, and an actual map could simulate the impact of terrain (being forced into a corner, dancing around muddy, uncertain ground, etc) in a way that the forum game version simply doesn't. Of course, that opens up a whole can of worms about how the scale weapon reach operates doesn't match any scale you'd use to draw a battlefield. Not an unsolvable problem, I think, but definitely a tricky one.

I think forms should generally require certain weapons. You might be able to substitute weapons of similar reach, but if the move requires a certain form of shield, a knife, two hands, or a free hand, you'll generally need to provide those to do the move unless there a good substitution rules. And maybe secondary weapons or shields might be used in certain steps of the technique.

Yes, there should probably be sword stat called Type that specifies the general shape of the weapon, explicitly calling it a shortsword/longsword/whatever. And of course, there can then be schools of Sword Form that rely on a specific named weapon; if the weapon is really exotic then I imagine it wouldn't be a form that works with any other sword of the type, or maybe you could use another sword of the type but you'd lose out on some specific advantage for not using the designated weapon.

Also, you should definitely have some sort of unarmed techniques. Some might involve kicks (this would also be a possibility for some armed techniques) and probably revolve around either getting in and out of range really fast, disarming, or occupying the opponent's weapon somehow to avoid strikes since you'd have nothing to parry with.

Obviously, a more realistic implementation of the system would have a lot of the "contact" between combatants being punches and kicks and shoves and the like. Specifically unarmed techniques... I mean, the Sword Form system as described can be used for unarmed martial arts about as well as it can be used for sword martial arts. For a game focused around swordfighting though, I don't know if I'd include it unless being disarmed is very possible, and even then I imagine a lot of it would probably focus on picking up your sword again. Then again, what do I care, it's at GM discretion like everything else.

If you want to lower the amount of dicerolls, you might possibly want to just have a few steps in the move be compared straight against the enemy's defense, though I would personally first consider if it's really necessary to roll the opponent's defense in the first place, rather than just comparing it to a straight defense value (possibly half the dice's max value plus the usual modifiers). Since balance allows these values to fluctuate on a round-by-round basis, it might even be worthwhile to compare straight values without rolls for certain steps.

Yeah, dice vs dice is laziness on my part, as that should average out over the long run (assuming the dice are the same size.) Static defense makes more sense, I just didn't want to think about it. The first rough rough draft mentioned that Balance might be used as Defense, or a modifier for it. My concern with that is that low Balance means you are more likely to be hit, which means you'll have even lower Balance. It's a feedback loop. Then again, since the Balance cost for a Sword Form resolves before the execution it gives the combatants more reason to think about the cost of their Sword Form. It supports that rock paper scissors dynamic of "Do I attack strongly (and expensively,) do I defend and recover Balance, or do I mix the two and try to tread water?" It could work, and would definitely lend toward shorter battles, but I'd want to playtest it a bit to make sure it doesn't feel like "Well I lost the first exchange, so now I'm dead."

So I know proposed using Balance as hitpoints, and that could certainly lend to an interesting style, but I think in a fight actually hits should maybe be somewhat rare, as you have to overcome your opponents defenses, one of which should be a passive parry ability that uses the defender's current balance score. The idea should be that, unlike other games where HP represents depleted luck from near-misses and/or loss of stamina to keep up with constantly avoided blows until you get down to the last few that represent actual flesh and blood damage, here every single wound should represent actual physical damage.

I think if I understand you right, that's basically what I meant. Losing Balance doesn't mean you've really been hit, it just means that your flow and movements have been interrupted. An attack that "hits" doesn't draw blood, but it does force you to break your stride by parrying, or the force of the blow might make you stumble back. Being out of Balance means you're so far out of your flow that you leave an opening, which your opponent takes to deal "real" damage.

I think some moves should allow you to activate some sorts of stances, or whatever you'd want to call them, that would do various things such as boost your defenses or allow you to perform counter-attacks in certain situations. Thinking about it, maybe there should be certain moves that act as combo moves, being able to be used freely upon successfully executing certain other moves, allowing you to not only change stances but alternatively perform a the equivalent of a single step of a regular move as part your turn (it's possible more steps could be included in a combo, but my gut says a single step is probably a good idea since it's an extra thing). Also, some combos, at least maybe stance combos, might be free to execute (since you have to succeed in another move to use them and you can only have one stance active at once (probably)).

This is something I've thought of (and intended to include in the maybe-someday videogame version,) but I didn't include it in the forum game version for the sake of simplicity. There was one concept I was thinking of, the idea of a precondition/postcondition of some description. Basically instead of choosing from any Sword Form you know, you'd have to pick Sword Forms that "connect" to each other to make a smooth dance. By connecting, I mean one of the requirements to start a Sword Form would be a certain stance, and at the end of a Sword Form you'd be in a different stance. Thus, you might pick an unexpected Sword Form which does not help you greatly on the turn you use it, but leaves you in a stance that would let you use a more powerful/useful Form the next turn. Like I said, I think it might be too complicated for a forum game, but in a perfect world I think that's how I'd do it.

Also, some combos might be what I would call default weapon forms, certain moves that can be used by anyone holding a certain weapon at the time. These would, by design, tend to be less useful, powerful, and varied than those provided by actual fighting schools and styles, since they mostly just simulate the general wild flailing of someone who is unfamiliar with a weapon (though there should be some benefit gained from being a generally competent fighter; probably just the general benefits you gain from having a good balance score). Rather than having forms for each weapon, there would probably be different forms for groups of weapons that behave similarly. In addition, there would also be some sort of default unarmed form that could be used by anyone who finds themselves suddenly unarmed in combat and needs to resort to good of fashioned fisticuffs.

Yes, this is probably the best way to handle thug combat; they know enough about swords to hold it right, but they don't know any real fighting styles like a Blademaster would. Base styles would probably have 2 steps at most, and not be as likely to succeed. Naturally good fighters would just have higher Balance, yes. I touched on the "weapon types" discussion a few paragraphs ago.

Speaking of unarmed combat, my post original spoke of it in a way that implied use against someone with a weapon. While there should be some styles for that, I think most forms of unarmed combat should probably be devoted to defeating other unarmed combatants (and you should probably have to master one of these styles before you're ready to take on dudes with weapons using only your fists).

Yeah, that's what I figured. GUNINANRUNIN asked specifically for sword fighting mechanics, but if you wanted to make an all-encompassing Martial Arts system for all weapon types (unarmed, staves, bows, whatever) I don't think it would be too hard to riff off of this system. Most of the melee weapons could use the same stats as swords, and ranged weapons just need a little tweaking, I think. Obviously the hard part is coming up with a mess of Schools and Forms for all those weapons, but hey, that's half the fun!

Oh, and I also thought of another way to keep track of fighting range: do as before, with numbers denoting the range, but instead of using dice, you can add or subtract a number of glass beads or poker chips or some other easily countable thing.

I think I like the dice idea better, but counters would work where dice are unavailable.

kj1225

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Re: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (Totally Not Roller's Block)
« Reply #374 on: July 12, 2013, 03:22:39 pm »

Given the mild failure of my last game I'm going to try and run one last one that is very much based on the RP between characters. In fact there are no stats and the only combat that will happen is between players and I just roll a d100 for each side to find how successful they were. Really I will only exists as the GM to give people permission to do things. This is more an experiment then anything.

So, would anyone play it or do you have a suggestion to make it more fun?
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