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Author Topic: When Kickstarter Goes Right  (Read 93678 times)

Il Palazzo

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #645 on: May 20, 2016, 01:42:33 am »

If the outcome of background events is all that matters for you, then this one is just not for you.
I expect you must find WW2-set books/films to be extremely boring, knowing that allies win.
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MrWiggles

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #646 on: May 20, 2016, 01:59:18 am »

If the outcome of background events is all that matters for you, then this one is just not for you.
I expect you must find WW2-set books/films to be extremely boring, knowing that allies win.
No. I find the concept of spoilers to be wholly alien.
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Reelya

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #647 on: May 20, 2016, 02:37:05 am »

Allies win?!?

Thanks a lot creep, you just spoiled Hearts Of Iron for me.

But seriously I just don't get where your coming from with that MrWiggles. Are you saying nobody should write historical fiction because it's already spoiled? Easy answer: don't read historical fiction then. But there's clearly a large market for it.

Adaptations in general and prequels also have the same problem. But I'd say that movies in general have this problem: Hero Wins, Gets The Girl, Big Bad loses and dies in an ironic fashion. Meanwhile, mook falls of ledge and gives Willhelm Scream. There, I just spoilt 2/3rds of all action movies for you.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 02:43:30 am by Reelya »
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MrWiggles

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #648 on: May 20, 2016, 02:43:59 am »

Allies win?!?

Thanks a lot creep, you just spoiled Hearts Of Iron for me.

But seriously I just don't get where your coming from with that MrWiggles. Are you saying nobody should write historical fiction because it's already spoiled? Easy answer: don't read historical fiction then. Other people however seem to dig that fact that the cool action epic is based on a true story, and that's who this book is for.
No, not saying that at all. My question, is how does this genre, interact with concept of spoilers. The idea that enjoyment, at any level, is diminished in part or in whole, with knowing anything about the story, in part or in whole.

If you (royal you) happen to subscribe to to the concept of spoilers how is this not ruined?
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Hawkfrost

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #649 on: May 20, 2016, 05:01:24 am »

Allies win?!?

Thanks a lot creep, you just spoiled Hearts Of Iron for me.

But seriously I just don't get where your coming from with that MrWiggles. Are you saying nobody should write historical fiction because it's already spoiled? Easy answer: don't read historical fiction then. Other people however seem to dig that fact that the cool action epic is based on a true story, and that's who this book is for.
No, not saying that at all. My question, is how does this genre, interact with concept of spoilers. The idea that enjoyment, at any level, is diminished in part or in whole, with knowing anything about the story, in part or in whole.

If you (royal you) happen to subscribe to to the concept of spoilers how is this not ruined?

I would say because it entirely depends on the story at hand, on a case by case basis.

Something can build towards creating certain expectations, and break those assumptions in an unexpected manner which excites and stuns the audience just as much as a work can be entirely divorced from surprises and still be compelling due to other qualities.

I've read all of Romance of the Three Kingdoms and seen the entirety of a show on it, while all the time knowing exactly who eventually wins out in the end and it not bothering me a bit; the drama of the characters and the way they interact with each other is still engaging because real people are complex and have reasons for everything they do. One of those "It's the journey not the destination" type things.

Spoilers, everyone in Romance of the Three Kingdoms dies. Every single person.
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MrWiggles

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #650 on: May 20, 2016, 05:24:03 am »

Cant you jsut apply that about spoilers in general?
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Hawkfrost

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #651 on: May 20, 2016, 05:34:39 am »

Cant you jsut apply that about spoilers in general?

Well, historical books are usually written in a different style than most others, with an assumption that the reader is likely at least passingly familiar with the events depicted.
You don't try to aim for twists or reveals because the cat was already out of the bag before you even started to write it, instead those books tend to focus on why things happened.
Spoilers don't really apply for that type of writing, and I would hope most people reading it would leave the concept of spoilers at the door.
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scriver

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #652 on: May 20, 2016, 08:27:27 am »

It also depends on the scale and whose viewpoint we're seeing. That Caesar here killed by Brutus is hardly a severe spoiler, but what happens to that Titus Pullo guy and the other soldier dude would be. Likewise, while hannibal losing the war is well known enough to not be a spoiler, the circumstances of the defeat might still be one.

Also Hannibal losing the war was only the start of his victories. He then went on to economically reform the Carthagian state to such success that the severe war dues Rome had leveled on them (with the intent of maiming them economically enough that they wouldn't ever threaten them again) were basically nullified. Then, after Rome forced him into exile because of his genius, he went on to, among other things, catapult snakes at Greeks in Anatolia. Also to great success.
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Reelya

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #653 on: May 20, 2016, 03:04:42 pm »

If you (royal you) happen to subscribe to to the concept of spoilers how is this not ruined?

Because it's about the journey, not the destination.

If you read historical fiction you note that a big part of it is in what and who they choose to focus on. Note that they already singled out two characters and have hinted that the story will hinge on their rivalry. This is also the reason much historical fiction focuses on the relationships of the characters, because they can fill in the blanks or give different characters viewpoints of events. It's why the Pearl Harbor movie focused on some nobody and his romance, and not just the battle. It's also why disaster movies focus on some guy looking for his wife or family, or some kids trying to get home. The "straight" telling of a disaster is that some buildings fall down and they sift through rubble looking for survivors. But people don't pay for a ticket to see the 7pm news: they want drama.

Gone With The Wind and John Wayne's The Alamo were both popular movies. Obviously people don't see those movies for the surprise plot twists. But to see how the set of known events unfolds in between. To see something you only read about visualized. Jason and the Argonauts was a classic Ray Harryhausen stop-motion animated epic. Now, Jason is searching for the Golden Fleece. And the "shock ending" is that he finds it. Clearly that's a spoiler, and you can be spoiled for almost the entire contents of this film by reading the mythology. Didn't stop it being a huge hit, because ...

So maybe, you're not a person for whom the phrase "it's about the journey, not the destination" makes any sense.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 03:27:19 pm by Reelya »
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MrWiggles

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #654 on: May 20, 2016, 09:28:14 pm »

Well... as I said earlier, I find the whole concept of spoilers wholly alien. I really dont get why folks get so hung up on its arbitrary rules, and arbitrary application. 'Its the journey' is something I do get behind. And its something that can applied against the concept of spoilers as well. And your two movie choices are bad, because they were released before spoilers became sacrosanct.
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Willfor

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #655 on: May 21, 2016, 12:08:47 am »

Okay, so, it seems you haven't pieced together the thing you want to know from the many chances you've been given from context of what everyone's said, so I am going to be extremely specific about what constitutes a spoiler, and why people get upset if you give it to them:

You have a movie called the Titanic. Okay. Everyone knows the ship sinks -- well, for the most part it's common knowledge, but there are always some people who are too young to know, or have missed a certain fact, anyway, for the purposes of this example, assume the majority of people know the ship sinks -- so the fact that the Titanic sinks is in no way a dramatic twist. And because it's not a dramatic twist, it cannot be a spoiler. I'll define a spoiler now: A spoiler is any event inside a narrative which the author of the dramatic piece wants to use to illicit shock from an audience. In the majority of narrative works, telling someone that "the hero gets the girl at the end" is not actually a spoiler -- even though some will get mad if you say it -- because it's not a twist. That's what usually happens. Like, 90% of the time if a movie maker is going to formula, the guy gets the girl is a beat of that formula they will hit. So why am I bringing this up? Because "the guy dies in the freezing ocean while the girl makes it safety" is a spoiler! It's a dramatic twist meant to illicit an emotional reaction, and it works best on the majority of audiences as a surprise. This, of course, means that there are outliers who have no idea why people get upset at spoilers, and it's because they do not share the same neural make-up as the intended audience of a piece. However, if this does not actually describe you, I'll keep going.

The spoiler cannot come from any piece of the actual historical record. Whenever an author is working with a particular historical context, there's always room to add original characters for the sake of the drama. That's why everyone's here, the drama. The story. The historical event is just a structure to build the story you want to tell around. Stories are essentially a tool to transfer emotional states and possibly knowledge between one person and a lot of other people. The largest impact a story will have on you is the first time you hear it. The reason modern audiences have grown so picky about spoilers is because we are only recently living in a golden age of story telling where there is actually no need to hear the same story twice. We used to have it so bad. We used to have to hear the exact same story over and over until we had it memorised. But now, now we get to experience the emotional hit of being surprised by a story whenever we like! So yes, the modern audience has gotten picky about spoilers, because to hear the supposed-to-be-surprising beats out of context will, for the majority of people, take away from the emotional impact that the story could have had on them.

That's why people care about spoilers.

And if you don't understand it after this explanation, I honestly have no idea what to tell you.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #656 on: May 21, 2016, 12:18:25 am »

Look at it this way, everyone is told at the start of Romeo and Juliet that they're all fucked and are gonna die, and then they invite you to see what happens in between

Reelya

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #657 on: May 21, 2016, 12:57:37 am »

And your two movie choices are bad, because they were released before spoilers became sacrosanct.

There's a Simpson's episode from 1991 with a flashback where Homer (in 1980) ruins the big twist in Empire Strikes Back for an entire line of moviegoers. That's the entire joke right there. Also a meta-joke: The Simpsons just spoiled Empire for anyone who hadn't seen it. But doing that in 1980 vs 1991 is a different kettle of fish.

Clearly the social gaffe Homer commits is a "spoiler" in the modern sense, and everyone watching The Simpsons in 1991 got that, without even needing to know what a spoiler is. in a way, this sounds very modern, but people 20 or even 40 years ago would totally get why Homer was an asshat - he revealed a spoiler for a brand-new movie people were lined up to see.

The term spoiler is internet speak. The concept itself is much older. Modern tech has just broadened the reach of asshats like Homer Simpsons to spoil things more efficiently. The effects on an individual are no more or less than when spoilers were word of mouth.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 01:22:12 am by Reelya »
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Flying Dice

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #658 on: June 16, 2016, 09:21:41 am »

After quite a long while, Gavan Woolery reached a point where he couldn't continue full-time work on Voxel Quest. So he's going to refund everything and make what he's done so far open source.

http://www.voxelquest.com/news/another-update
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: When Kickstarter Goes Right
« Reply #659 on: June 16, 2016, 09:53:57 am »

Swinging by to PTW.
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