Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

 _

_
- 0 (0%)
_
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: April 07, 2013, 10:34:35 am


Pages: 1 ... 1523 1524 [1525] 1526 1527 ... 2101

Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette On ship Thread: Maurice's One Night Stand  (Read 5978965 times)

Harry Baldman

  • Bay Watcher
  • What do I care for your suffering?
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22860 on: January 12, 2014, 06:08:52 pm »

((So, wait. You're saying that if there could be an explanation for the "magic," we can't call it fantasy?))

((I'm saying it depends on what the explanation is. If it's an inherent talent of humanity, that's more on the fantasy side. If it's Space God, it's also fantasy. If it's phlebotinum, that veers more on the sci-fi side, though the fact is, you can't put a certain work in one genre based on only a single detail. And the idea that you can't entirely separate science fiction and fantasy has been sort of my point.))

((Urban fantasy is a seperate thing, drawing from fantasy (and sometimes superhero fiction) and putting it into a modern setting. And I'm unaware of any fantasy drawing from westerns and samurai stuff, whereas it should be pretty obvious that a lot of sci-fi has the Old West as a metaphor (if they're not going for the Age of Sail), tropes and all, and Star Wars is directly influenced by said samurai stuff. Can you think of any examples of major works of fantasy being inspired by samurai films or westerns? You keep making these claims, but never back them up.))

((How is something called urban fantasy not actually fantasy?

As for fantasy settings with Western and samurai influences, things I can come up with right now are mostly game settings (like Deadlands for westerns... oh, and the Dark Tower series, which I haven't actually read, and though I'm not an avid fantasy reader and can't say for certain, I do have a sneaking suspicion ninjas and samurai may not be all that rare, even if they're not called that exactly. The fact that there are a whole lot of game settings with Asian-themed supplements also hints at this. Sounds weak, I guess, but that's the best I can provide without a comprehensive education on the subject.

I wonder, though, whether steampunk counts more as fantasy or as science fiction? Gaslamp fantasy I'm clear on, but steampunk?))

((Factoring in your original point, that's like saying that since there isn't a clear divide between human and ape, there is no difference between the two. Yes, there are australopithecines and such, but barring the occasional insult no one has any real difference telling the difference between an average human and an average ape.))

((That is true, but we hardly have the entire genetic lineage of humanity running around at once either, do we? It's not exactly an apt analogy. Besides, humans are apes. Great apes, technically. They look significantly different from chimpanzees, sure, but chimpanzees are also significantly different from gorillas. I'm more trying to say (though I do get caught up in the details a lot and start to argue things more for the sake of it than to prove any actual point - see this paragraph, for instance) that, if we did, in fact, have the entire genetic lineage of humanity running around at any given point, we shouldn't really get too uptight about calling one of the things on the gradient a human and another some other ape we want nothing to do with.))

((The way I look at it, science fiction and fantasy are more settings than stories. If it has golems and magic, it's fantasy. If it has robots and psionics, it's science fiction. If it has a weird mix of both, it's not a justification to lump the two together.))

((The setting part I agree with, and I perceive the true difference to be one of flavor and presentation, once again. Hence why I'm trying to argue that the difference isn't really something to be overly concerned about. I'm not trying to say (though I probably have already - an unfortunate side effect of me getting sidetracked) we should lump the two in together, I'm trying to point out that they overlap in places and to institute some kind of strict dichotomy between them is silly. For example, the Fallout universe has lasers, robots and mutants, but it also has ghosts, telepathy and a touch of magic in a few places, not to mention the general softness of the sci-fi elements there are. So it might not be science-fictiony (or hard, if you prefer that term) enough for some, but that's a matter of personal preference. To try and institute a clear line where there really isn't one is unnecessary.

Although I am also of the opinion that psionics is just magic by a less silly-sounding name.))

((What is magic? Is it energy applied through unseen means? Is it rituals that result in a certain event? Is it application of energy and knowledge through communion with a semi-intelligent force? Is it simply an effect we cannot explain? An effect that cannot be explained? It helps when everyone is on the same page, since magic has so many definitions. Depending on the definition you give, the truth of the above arguments changes. Same for some of the other things you are arguing about. Is magic and unknown forces like fate and gods the defining characteristic of fantasy? Is science and technology (or what looks like such) as an important part of the story the defining characteristic of sci-fi?))

((Whatever definition I can come up with seems lacking, but the Wikipedia one is such: magic or sorcery is an attempt to understand, experience and influence the world using rituals, symbols, actions, gestures and language. Granted, I'm pretty sure that means having a lively conversation with a friend about the news of the world, their personal life and politics is magic. Magic, I guess, is basically any repeatable event we cannot in any way explain or connect with the correlating ritual that seems to have caused it with our available knowledge (or the very nature of the event contradicts established and proven ideas on the nature of reality, maybe). That would make any sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic and any sufficiently analyzed magic indistinguishable from technology, which also makes for a good reason why separating sci-fi and fantasy entirely is unnecessary and silly.

Man, I've spent way too much time on this. It's helping me clarify my thoughts to myself, though, which I suppose is good. I should probably stop before I embarrass myself too much, however.))
Logged

GreatWyrmGold

  • Bay Watcher
  • Sane, by the local standards.
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22861 on: January 12, 2014, 06:32:33 pm »

((So, wait. You're saying that if there could be an explanation for the "magic," we can't call it fantasy?))
((I'm saying it depends on what the explanation is. If it's an inherent talent of humanity, that's more on the fantasy side. If it's Space God, it's also fantasy. If it's phlebotinum, that veers more on the sci-fi side, though the fact is, you can't put a certain work in one genre based on only a single detail. And the idea that you can't entirely separate science fiction and fantasy has been sort of my point.))
((So, a novel where everyone uses gems with inherent magical power to use magic is science fiction because the magic comes from phlebotinum?
And you've been trying to do that this whole time by explaining that the difference between science fiction and fantasy is if the "magic" is explained or not.))

Quote
((Urban fantasy is a seperate thing, drawing from fantasy (and sometimes superhero fiction) and putting it into a modern setting. And I'm unaware of any fantasy drawing from westerns and samurai stuff, whereas it should be pretty obvious that a lot of sci-fi has the Old West as a metaphor (if they're not going for the Age of Sail), tropes and all, and Star Wars is directly influenced by said samurai stuff. Can you think of any examples of major works of fantasy being inspired by samurai films or westerns? You keep making these claims, but never back them up.))
((How is something called urban fantasy not actually fantasy?
((Same way that science fiction isn't science, that comic books aren't literature, and the glass snake isn't a snake. Names are just names. In any case, calling "urban fantasy," "fantasy" is like calling "fantasy" "folklore"; the only connections they have are certain elements of the story and a sort of...memetic evolution thing.))

Quote
As for fantasy settings with Western and samurai influences, things I can come up with right now are mostly game settings (like Deadlands for westerns... oh, and the Dark Tower series, which I haven't actually read, and though I'm not an avid fantasy reader and can't say for certain, I do have a sneaking suspicion ninjas and samurai may not be all that rare, even if they're not called that exactly. The fact that there are a whole lot of game settings with Asian-themed supplements also hints at this. Sounds weak, I guess, but that's the best I can provide without a comprehensive education on the subject.
((Taking ninja doesn't mean you're taking tropes from samurai films, it means you're taking ninja and sticking them into your work. There are story elements associated with samurai films, just like there are ones associated with Westerns or fantasy stories. Taking ninja-like people--or even real ninja--and saying it's proof of taking inspiration from samurai films is roughly akin to saying that since noir films have gunslingers, they take inspiration from Westerns. Arguably, the ninja connection is even weaker.))

Quote
I wonder, though, whether steampunk counts more as fantasy or as science fiction? Gaslamp fantasy I'm clear on, but steampunk?))
((Depends on the steampunk. Girl Genius is more fantasy, but a "harder" steampunk setting would fall more into science fiction. Not that most fits well into either, which is part of why "steampunk" exists as a separate term.))

Quote
((Factoring in your original point, that's like saying that since there isn't a clear divide between human and ape, there is no difference between the two. Yes, there are australopithecines and such, but barring the occasional insult no one has any real difference telling the difference between an average human and an average ape.))
((That is true, but we hardly have the entire genetic lineage of humanity running around at once either, do we? It's not exactly an apt analogy.
((That point is irrelevant. Besides, we don't have every step between folklore and fantasy in the popular consciousness, do we?))

Quote
Besides, humans are apes. Great apes, technically. They look significantly different from chimpanzees, sure, but chimpanzees are also significantly different from gorillas. I'm more trying to say (though I do get caught up in the details a lot and start to argue things more for the sake of it than to prove any actual point - see this paragraph, for instance) that, if we did, in fact, have the entire genetic lineage of humanity running around at any given point, we shouldn't really get too uptight about calling one of the things on the gradient a human and another some other ape we want nothing to do with.))
((And yet, humans are so distinct that from Linnaeus to modern times hominids have been a separate family from the rest of the apes. Humans are apes because of the way biological classifications work; it's a bit irrelevant since fiction is classified differently, as shown by the fact that no one calls LotR "mythology".))

Quote
((The way I look at it, science fiction and fantasy are more settings than stories. If it has golems and magic, it's fantasy. If it has robots and psionics, it's science fiction. If it has a weird mix of both, it's not a justification to lump the two together.))
((The setting part I agree with, and I perceive the true difference to be one of flavor and presentation, once again. Hence why I'm trying to argue that the difference isn't really something to be overly concerned about. I'm not trying to say (though I probably have already - an unfortunate side effect of me getting sidetracked) we should lump the two in together, I'm trying to point out that they overlap in places and to institute some kind of strict dichotomy between them is silly. For example, the Fallout universe has lasers, robots and mutants, but it also has ghosts, telepathy and a touch of magic in a few places, not to mention the general softness of the sci-fi elements there are. So it might not be science-fictiony (or hard, if you prefer that term) enough for some, but that's a matter of personal preference. To try and institute a clear line where there really isn't one is unnecessary.
((Again, just because there isn't a firm dividing line doesn't mean there isn't a difference.))

Quote
Although I am also of the opinion that psionics is just magic by a less silly-sounding name.))
((I agree with you here on everything except psionics sounding less silly.))

Quote
((What is magic? Is it energy applied through unseen means? Is it rituals that result in a certain event? Is it application of energy and knowledge through communion with a semi-intelligent force? Is it simply an effect we cannot explain? An effect that cannot be explained? It helps when everyone is on the same page, since magic has so many definitions. Depending on the definition you give, the truth of the above arguments changes. Same for some of the other things you are arguing about. Is magic and unknown forces like fate and gods the defining characteristic of fantasy? Is science and technology (or what looks like such) as an important part of the story the defining characteristic of sci-fi?))
((Whatever definition I can come up with seems lacking, but the Wikipedia one is such: magic or sorcery is an attempt to understand, experience and influence the world using rituals, symbols, actions, gestures and language. Granted, I'm pretty sure that means having a lively conversation with a friend about the news of the world, their personal life and politics is magic. Magic, I guess, is basically any repeatable event we cannot in any way explain or connect with the correlating ritual that seems to have caused it with our available knowledge (or the very nature of the event contradicts established and proven ideas on the nature of reality, maybe). That would make any sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic and any sufficiently analyzed magic indistinguishable from technology, which also makes for a good reason why separating sci-fi and fantasy entirely is unnecessary and silly.
((Again, by your argument most of the pillars of modern science fiction fall firmly into fantasy. When your definitions cause such obvious contradictions, you need to change them.))

Quote
Man, I've spent way too much time on this. It's helping me clarify my thoughts to myself, though, which I suppose is good. I should probably stop before I embarrass myself too much, however.))
((There are two kinds of debates: Annoying and stimulating. This has been the latter.))
Logged
Sig
Are you a GM with players who haven't posted? TheDelinquent Players Help will have Bay12 give you an action!
[GreatWyrmGold] gets a little crown. May it forever be his mark of Cain; let no one argue pointless subjects with him lest they receive the same.

Xantalos

  • Bay Watcher
  • Your Friendly Salvation
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22862 on: January 12, 2014, 07:19:50 pm »

((HEY
HEY
ER IS SCIENCE FICTION
SETTINGS WITH BONAFIDE MAGIC, GODS, ETC ARE SCIFI
SCIFI IS JUST FANTASY THAT'S BETTER EXPLAINED
DONE))
Logged
Sig! Onol
Quote from: BFEL
XANTALOS, THE KARATEBOMINATION
Quote from: Toaster
((The Xantalos Die: [1, 1, 1, 6, 6, 6]))

GreatWyrmGold

  • Bay Watcher
  • Sane, by the local standards.
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22863 on: January 12, 2014, 07:42:16 pm »

SETTINGS WITH BONAFIDE MAGIC, GODS, ETC ARE SCIFI
SCIFI IS JUST FANTASY THAT'S BETTER EXPLAINED
DONE))
((Wrong, so wrong. What the heck is wrong with you? Look at the Big Three--Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein. Three of the founders of science fiction, used hard science. With a few exceptions, not a scrap of "fantastic" elements in them. 90% of their stories were rigidly following scientific laws; heck, Heinlein calculated orbital vectors and such for The Rolling Stones! Many science fiction authors since then have followed in their footsteps, keeping their science fiction hard. How dare you say "Sci-Fi is just Fantasy that's better explained?
And the sci-fi that's just "fantasy in space with robots and lasers" or whatever is also that stuff that isn't explained.))
Logged
Sig
Are you a GM with players who haven't posted? TheDelinquent Players Help will have Bay12 give you an action!
[GreatWyrmGold] gets a little crown. May it forever be his mark of Cain; let no one argue pointless subjects with him lest they receive the same.

TCM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22864 on: January 12, 2014, 08:06:42 pm »

((HEY
HEY
ER IS SCIENCE FICTION
SETTINGS WITH BONAFIDE MAGIC, GODS, ETC ARE SCIFI
SCIFI IS JUST FANTASY THAT'S BETTER EXPLAINED
DONE))

((WHAT YOU EVEN
WHAT YOU EVEN KNOW ABOUT SCIFI
I GOT MAD SCIFI OVER HERE LIKE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW SCIFI
ALL MY PEOPLE ARE SCIFI
IT'S THAT HARDCORE SCIFI LIFE BOI WHAT YOU EVEN WHAT YOU EVEN KNOW
I GOT SIFI DRIPPING OUT MAH BUTTCHEEKS
SLEEP ON MY STOMACH SO I DON'T FUCK UP THE SHEETS))
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 08:13:45 pm by TCM »
Logged
Because trying to stuff Fate/Whatever's engrish and the title of a 17th century book on statecraft into Pokemon syntax tends to make the content incomprehensible.

GreatWyrmGold

  • Bay Watcher
  • Sane, by the local standards.
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22865 on: January 12, 2014, 08:11:35 pm »

((I was agreeing with TCM there for a line or two. Weird.))
Logged
Sig
Are you a GM with players who haven't posted? TheDelinquent Players Help will have Bay12 give you an action!
[GreatWyrmGold] gets a little crown. May it forever be his mark of Cain; let no one argue pointless subjects with him lest they receive the same.

NAV

  • Bay Watcher
  • I have an idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22866 on: January 12, 2014, 08:46:11 pm »

((Science fiction makes you think of the future. Fantasy makes you think of the past. There are many exceptions, like urban fantasy or steampunk.))
Logged
Highmax…dead, flesh torn from him, though his skill with the sword was unmatched…military…Nearly destroyed .. Rhunorah... dead... Mastahcheese returns...dead. Gaul...alive, still locked in combat. NAV...Alive, drinking booze....
The face on the toaster does not look like one of mercy.

piecewise

  • Bay Watcher
  • [TORTURE_FOR_FUN]
    • View Profile
    • Stuff
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22867 on: January 12, 2014, 08:59:07 pm »

This is starting to remind me of those arguments I saw back when Skyrim came out and people were very angry that the "Dragons" weren't "Dragons" but "Wyverns" instead.

Gamerlord

  • Bay Watcher
  • Novice GM
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22868 on: January 12, 2014, 09:06:48 pm »

This is starting to remind me of those arguments I saw back when Skyrim came out and people were very angry that the "Dragons" weren't "Dragons" but "Wyverns" instead.
((But they were dragons... what exactly is the difference between a dragon and a wyvern?))

TCM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22869 on: January 12, 2014, 09:12:10 pm »

((WORD UP!))

((HELL YEAH!))

This is starting to remind me of those arguments I saw back when Skyrim came out and people were very angry that the "Dragons" weren't "Dragons" but "Wyverns" instead.

((Sometimes the pedanticness reaches a limit and you've just got to stop it before it spreads.))

This is starting to remind me of those arguments I saw back when Skyrim came out and people were very angry that the "Dragons" weren't "Dragons" but "Wyverns" instead.
((But they were dragons... what exactly is the difference between a dragon and a wyvern?))

((Just look up 'Difference between Dragons and Wyverns" on Google. Don't listen to anyone here. Please, you'll regret it.))
Logged
Because trying to stuff Fate/Whatever's engrish and the title of a 17th century book on statecraft into Pokemon syntax tends to make the content incomprehensible.

Toaster

  • Bay Watcher
  • Appliance
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22870 on: January 12, 2014, 09:20:14 pm »

((I like Terry Pratchett's view on it.  Somewhere- and I can't find the source after a quick Google- he basically said that both labels were bogus, and fiction is fiction is fiction.  In the end, they're all the same story.))
Logged
HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Gamerlord

  • Bay Watcher
  • Novice GM
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22871 on: January 12, 2014, 09:34:42 pm »

((I like Terry Pratchett's view on it.  Somewhere- and I can't find the source after a quick Google- he basically said that both labels were bogus, and fiction is fiction is fiction.  In the end, they're all the same story.))
((Terry Pratchett is usually correct about this sort of thing.))

TCM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22872 on: January 12, 2014, 10:03:39 pm »

((I like Terry Pratchett's view on it.  Somewhere- and I can't find the source after a quick Google- he basically said that both labels were bogus, and fiction is fiction is fiction.  In the end, they're all the same story.))

((This is also a valid point.))
Logged
Because trying to stuff Fate/Whatever's engrish and the title of a 17th century book on statecraft into Pokemon syntax tends to make the content incomprehensible.

GreatWyrmGold

  • Bay Watcher
  • Sane, by the local standards.
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22873 on: January 12, 2014, 10:25:55 pm »

Spoiler: X-Complete (click to show/hide)
I expected hoped to last a while longer, but really, this is probably best. I had some new toys, but my only really experienced soldier was Specter. I also had a lieutenant sniper, a new heavy, and some rookies, plus some SHIVs.

Some critiques, in case anyone here is working on the next XCOM game.
Spoiler: Critiques (click to show/hide)

Now to delete those autosaves and such that piled up.

This is starting to remind me of those arguments I saw back when Skyrim came out and people were very angry that the "Dragons" weren't "Dragons" but "Wyverns" instead.
((But they were dragons... what exactly is the difference between a dragon and a wyvern?))
((Usually, wyverns have two legs and two wings, whereas dragons...well, a plurality have four legs and two wings. Wyverns are basically a type of dragon.))

((I like Terry Pratchett's view on it.  Somewhere- and I can't find the source after a quick Google- he basically said that both labels were bogus, and fiction is fiction is fiction.  In the end, they're all the same story.))
((That's like saying that there is no such thing as an animal or a plant because they're both eukaryotes. He is often a wise man, but that bit of "wisdom" is utter BS.
Also, there's like seven types of stories. The monomyth is the "Voyage and Return" plot as described by Christopher Booker. There are about half a dozen other basic plots, some similar, some nothing alike. How do you fit "Rags to Riches," "Comedy," "Tragedy," or "Rebirth" into that monomyth?))
Logged
Sig
Are you a GM with players who haven't posted? TheDelinquent Players Help will have Bay12 give you an action!
[GreatWyrmGold] gets a little crown. May it forever be his mark of Cain; let no one argue pointless subjects with him lest they receive the same.

syvarris

  • Bay Watcher
  • UNICORNPEGASUSKITTEN
    • View Profile
Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22874 on: January 12, 2014, 10:30:06 pm »

((I'm one of those crazies that differentiates.  Wyverns are the realistic sort of dragon that only has four limbs- two wings and two legs.  "Dragons" (I've always called them the "european variety") are your traditional four-legged two-winged fantasy dragons.  I personally prefer the latter, because the former look less awesome to me for whatever reason.

Before anybody jumps in to say it's stupid semantics, it's a categorization of dragon.  They're both dragons, just different.  Just like how a "truck" and "van" are both large vehicles, but are different.  Some people prefer one over the other, and it's simpler to say "truck" than "big car with a small enclosed cab and a large bed for holding stuff behind it".

Therefore, complaining about Skyrim having Wyverns does make sense- still pedantic, but not because of the name.))
Pages: 1 ... 1523 1524 [1525] 1526 1527 ... 2101