Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

_

0 (0%)

_

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: April 07, 2013, 10:34:35 am

[Doomblade187]

(("Isn't that a demonic duck of sort?!"))

((Thank you. It's from EGS. Have a cookie.))

Spoiler: Cookie (click to show/hide)

[Kriellya]

((Time to reactivate the reactor.))
Find the reactor and find out why it's offline

(( We already have some people trying to reactivate the reactor, so I'd recommend staying on task

In fact, one task just completed, and I think the other task is near completion. So cool your jets and replace some armor ))

[Harry Baldman]

((Like I said, Star Wars is one of the precursors of modern sci-fi. And by your logic, Einsteinian Roulette is even more firmly in the category of fantasy than Star Wars, because it calls its magic magic and never really tries to explain it.))

((Actually, that is something that occurred to me. It's got magic (space magic and STEPHEN HAWKING'S shamanic rituals), evil spirits, prophetic hallucinations, it's even got its own version of cessation of progress. Though I do believe the name of space magic is something that came from the players and piecewise just rolled with it. I don't think anybody in the actual setting who isn't a PC calls it that. And it's not that it doesn't try to explain it, it merely makes it very difficult to find out anything about it. So, without knowing the underlying knowledge of the matter, it's hard to gauge how fantastic ER actually is.))

(("Folklore and mythology" are more the ancestors of fantasy than "inspiration"; there isn't a strong divide. On the other hand, there is as strong divide between, say, Westerns or samurai movies and science fiction.))

((Doesn't fantasy also draw from samurai movies and westerns (well, at least certain subgenres of it)? There's stuff like urban fantasy, which takes stuff from the same contemporary narratives as science fiction, and low fantasy, which has elements of various realistic period pieces, and more. Even if we discount folklore and mythology (between which and fantasy there is indeed a strong divide, if only because of folklore and mythology being a mutable, variable invention of the people (the latter created to facilitate understanding of life, no less), while fantasy is a mostly immutable invention of what is usually a single person), fantasy has a whole lot of inspirations. Probably as many or more than science fiction, I would say.

And like piecewise said, you can't draw an absolute line between science fiction and fantasy. It's more of a gradient, really, in the middle of which science fiction is fantasy in a different dress and vice versa.))

[Doomblade187]

((And then there are the fantasy novels that are actually sci-fi, the storyline just needs to advance far enough. I've seen some. Haven't read them, though.))

[BFEL]

((And then there are the fantasy novels that are actually sci-fi, the storyline just needs to advance far enough. I've seen some. Haven't read them, though.))

((THERES MAGIC IN THE WORLD!....except not really, its just aliens dicking around ))

[WhitiusOpus]

cut ze plate!

((Yes. That setting gets all of it. As long as it's grounded in reality, I don't really like the "magic" property of it. Sorta like ER. Fantasy elements don't interest me as much as sci-fi realism.))

[Doomblade187]

((And then there are the fantasy novels that are actually sci-fi, the storyline just needs to advance far enough. I've seen some. Haven't read them, though.))

((THERES MAGIC IN THE WORLD!....except not really, its just aliens dicking around ))

((They take the 'sufficiently advanced technology' rule/saying literally.))

[Spinal_Taper]

Go outside. Look around. Is anyone visible?

[GreatWyrmGold]

((Like I said, Star Wars is one of the precursors of modern sci-fi. And by your logic, Einsteinian Roulette is even more firmly in the category of fantasy than Star Wars, because it calls its magic magic and never really tries to explain it.))

((Actually, that is something that occurred to me. It's got magic (space magic and STEPHEN HAWKING'S shamanic rituals), evil spirits, prophetic hallucinations, it's even got its own version of cessation of progress. Though I do believe the name of space magic is something that came from the players and piecewise just rolled with it. I don't think anybody in the actual setting who isn't a PC calls it that. And it's not that it doesn't try to explain it, it merely makes it very difficult to find out anything about it. So, without knowing the underlying knowledge of the matter, it's hard to gauge how fantastic ER actually is.))

((So, wait. You're saying that if there could be an explanation for the "magic," we can't call it fantasy?))

(("Folklore and mythology" are more the ancestors of fantasy than "inspiration"; there isn't a strong divide. On the other hand, there is as strong divide between, say, Westerns or samurai movies and science fiction.))

((Doesn't fantasy also draw from samurai movies and westerns (well, at least certain subgenres of it)? There's stuff like urban fantasy, which takes stuff from the same contemporary narratives as science fiction, and low fantasy, which has elements of various realistic period pieces, and more. Even if we discount folklore and mythology (between which and fantasy there is indeed a strong divide, if only because of folklore and mythology being a mutable, variable invention of the people (the latter created to facilitate understanding of life, no less), while fantasy is a mostly immutable invention of what is usually a single person), fantasy has a whole lot of inspirations. Probably as many or more than science fiction, I would say.

((Urban fantasy is a seperate thing, drawing from fantasy (and sometimes superhero fiction) and putting it into a modern setting. And I'm unaware of any fantasy drawing from westerns and samurai stuff, whereas it should be pretty obvious that a lot of sci-fi has the Old West as a metaphor (if they're not going for the Age of Sail), tropes and all, and Star Wars is directly influenced by said samurai stuff. Can you think of any examples of major works of fantasy being inspired by samurai films or westerns? You keep making these claims, but never back them up.))

And like piecewise said, you can't draw an absolute line between science fiction and fantasy. It's more of a gradient, really, in the middle of which science fiction is fantasy in a different dress and vice versa.))

((Factoring in your original point, that's like saying that since there isn't a clear divide between human and ape, there is no difference between the two. Yes, there are australopithecines and such, but barring the occasional insult no one has any real difference telling the difference between an average human and an average ape.))

[BFEL]

((Like I said, Star Wars is one of the precursors of modern sci-fi. And by your logic, Einsteinian Roulette is even more firmly in the category of fantasy than Star Wars, because it calls its magic magic and never really tries to explain it.))

((Actually, that is something that occurred to me. It's got magic (space magic and STEPHEN HAWKING'S shamanic rituals), evil spirits, prophetic hallucinations, it's even got its own version of cessation of progress. Though I do believe the name of space magic is something that came from the players and piecewise just rolled with it. I don't think anybody in the actual setting who isn't a PC calls it that. And it's not that it doesn't try to explain it, it merely makes it very difficult to find out anything about it. So, without knowing the underlying knowledge of the matter, it's hard to gauge how fantastic ER actually is.))

((So, wait. You're saying that if there could be an explanation for the "magic," we can't call it fantasy?))

((No, he's saying there explicitly IS an explanation, but we aren't high enough on the chain of knowing things to know what it is. What you're saying is like going "oh the government won't tell me the codes to the nuclear missles, so clearly they don't exist" ))

[GreatWyrmGold]

((Like I said, Star Wars is one of the precursors of modern sci-fi. And by your logic, Einsteinian Roulette is even more firmly in the category of fantasy than Star Wars, because it calls its magic magic and never really tries to explain it.))

((Actually, that is something that occurred to me. It's got magic (space magic and STEPHEN HAWKING'S shamanic rituals), evil spirits, prophetic hallucinations, it's even got its own version of cessation of progress. Though I do believe the name of space magic is something that came from the players and piecewise just rolled with it. I don't think anybody in the actual setting who isn't a PC calls it that. And it's not that it doesn't try to explain it, it merely makes it very difficult to find out anything about it. So, without knowing the underlying knowledge of the matter, it's hard to gauge how fantastic ER actually is.))

((So, wait. You're saying that if there could be an explanation for the "magic," we can't call it fantasy?))

((No, he's saying there explicitly IS an explanation, but we aren't high enough on the chain of knowing things to know what it is. What you're saying is like going "oh the government won't tell me the codes to the nuclear missles, so clearly they don't exist" ))

((There's always an explanation, it's just a question of:
A. how deep it is
B. if the readers are ever told
C. if the author knows
Hence, your current argument places all fantasy under sci-fi because magic has an explanation that a nice Renaissance and a couple centuries would find.))

[BFEL]

((Like I said, Star Wars is one of the precursors of modern sci-fi. And by your logic, Einsteinian Roulette is even more firmly in the category of fantasy than Star Wars, because it calls its magic magic and never really tries to explain it.))

((Actually, that is something that occurred to me. It's got magic (space magic and STEPHEN HAWKING'S shamanic rituals), evil spirits, prophetic hallucinations, it's even got its own version of cessation of progress. Though I do believe the name of space magic is something that came from the players and piecewise just rolled with it. I don't think anybody in the actual setting who isn't a PC calls it that. And it's not that it doesn't try to explain it, it merely makes it very difficult to find out anything about it. So, without knowing the underlying knowledge of the matter, it's hard to gauge how fantastic ER actually is.))

((So, wait. You're saying that if there could be an explanation for the "magic," we can't call it fantasy?))

((No, he's saying there explicitly IS an explanation, but we aren't high enough on the chain of knowing things to know what it is. What you're saying is like going "oh the government won't tell me the codes to the nuclear missles, so clearly they don't exist" ))

((There's always an explanation, it's just a question of:
A. how deep it is
B. if the readers are ever told
C. if the author knows
Hence, your current argument places all fantasy under sci-fi because magic has an explanation that a nice Renaissance and a couple centuries would find.))

((So you're saying fantasy becomes sci-fi once it receives an explanation? There are plenty of "fantasy" settings where magic is well understood by the masses. Are those settings immediately reclassified as sci-fi?))

[GreatWyrmGold]

((Like I said, Star Wars is one of the precursors of modern sci-fi. And by your logic, Einsteinian Roulette is even more firmly in the category of fantasy than Star Wars, because it calls its magic magic and never really tries to explain it.))

((Actually, that is something that occurred to me. It's got magic (space magic and STEPHEN HAWKING'S shamanic rituals), evil spirits, prophetic hallucinations, it's even got its own version of cessation of progress. Though I do believe the name of space magic is something that came from the players and piecewise just rolled with it. I don't think anybody in the actual setting who isn't a PC calls it that. And it's not that it doesn't try to explain it, it merely makes it very difficult to find out anything about it. So, without knowing the underlying knowledge of the matter, it's hard to gauge how fantastic ER actually is.))

((So, wait. You're saying that if there could be an explanation for the "magic," we can't call it fantasy?))

((No, he's saying there explicitly IS an explanation, but we aren't high enough on the chain of knowing things to know what it is. What you're saying is like going "oh the government won't tell me the codes to the nuclear missles, so clearly they don't exist" ))

((There's always an explanation, it's just a question of:
A. how deep it is
B. if the readers are ever told
C. if the author knows
Hence, your current argument places all fantasy under sci-fi because magic has an explanation that a nice Renaissance and a couple centuries would find.))

((So you're saying fantasy becomes sci-fi once it receives an explanation? There are plenty of "fantasy" settings where magic is well understood by the masses. Are those settings immediately reclassified as sci-fi?))

((I'm not saying that, Baldman is (see the bolded text in the pyramid). I'm merely dissecting his logic to point out the flaws.))

[Parisbre56]

((What is magic? Is it energy applied through unseen means? Is it rituals that result in a certain event? Is it application of energy and knowledge through communion with a semi-intelligent force? Is it simply an effect we cannot explain? An effect that cannot be explained? It helps when everyone is on the same page, since magic has so many definitions. Depending on the definition you give, the truth of the above arguments changes. Same for some of the other things you are arguing about. Is magic and unknown forces like fate and gods the defining characteristic of fantasy? Is science and technology (or what looks like such) as an important part of the story the defining characteristic of sci-fi?))

[GreatWyrmGold]

((The way I look at it, science fiction and fantasy are more settings than stories. If it has golems and magic, it's fantasy. If it has robots and psionics, it's science fiction. If it has a weird mix of both, it's not a justification to lump the two together.))