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Voting closed: April 07, 2013, 10:34:35 am


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Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette On ship Thread: Maurice's One Night Stand  (Read 5930428 times)

BFEL

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22335 on: December 30, 2013, 02:24:15 am »

((Then surely you come to a rather terrifying prospect do you not? Your mind and all contained within it, your memories, your identity, dreams and dreads are all but irrelevant. If Person A remains Person A despite possessing Person B's body and mind rather than their own, then would it not indicate that what makes Person A, Person A is neither contained within their body nor mind? That their thoughts, sense of self and more or less who they are does not matter?))

((I DO NOT! I come to the conclusion that I suddenly stopped caring about this argument. Huh. Weird.))
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Xantalos

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22336 on: December 30, 2013, 02:32:35 am »

((Then surely you come to a rather terrifying prospect do you not? Your mind and all contained within it, your memories, your identity, dreams and dreads are all but irrelevant. If Person A remains Person A despite possessing Person B's body and mind rather than their own, then would it not indicate that what makes Person A, Person A is neither contained within their body nor mind? That their thoughts, sense of self and more or less who they are does not matter?))
((How is that scary?))
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22337 on: December 30, 2013, 03:06:03 am »

((Then surely you come to a rather terrifying prospect do you not? Your mind and all contained within it, your memories, your identity, dreams and dreads are all but irrelevant. If Person A remains Person A despite possessing Person B's body and mind rather than their own, then would it not indicate that what makes Person A, Person A is neither contained within their body nor mind? That their thoughts, sense of self and more or less who they are does not matter?))
((I think it's nothing strange. After all, it happens all the damn time. The body's cells are renewed, the chemical balances as the body grows and becomes older are changing the brain chemistry and personality, and as a result at different ages the same person can be that Person A and Person B. It's an ontological question, in a way. If at no point during the process of change the object ceases to be itself, then it will continue being itself when the changes stop. The ship that had its parts replaced one by one is still the same ship, but a ship that's been taken apart and reassembled later with new parts is not - it's merely an identical ship.))
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Kriellya

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22338 on: December 30, 2013, 04:35:09 am »

(( Must... resist... I won't... start... philosophizing... XD

Gahhh, PW, why must you bring up my 'favorite' philsophical paradoxes? Do you think I like the traps my mind lays for itself when it gets on these sort of tracks of thinking?

Relatedly, if we ever invent any form of teleportation, I am not using it. Fake cookies to whoever can tell me why. ))
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Empiricist

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22339 on: December 30, 2013, 04:38:05 am »

((Teleportation would most likely destroy the input and replicate it at the output. You would die and someone who is identical to you in mind and body would pop up at the receiving teleporter.))
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Xantalos

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22340 on: December 30, 2013, 04:38:55 am »

(( Must... resist... I won't... start... philosophizing... XD

Gahhh, PW, why must you bring up my 'favorite' philsophical paradoxes? Do you think I like the traps my mind lays for itself when it gets on these sort of tracks of thinking?

Relatedly, if we ever invent any form of teleportation, I am not using it. Fake cookies to whoever can tell me why. ))
Herp derp am I still me or did the original me die when I was deconstructed for teleportation oh noes
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22341 on: December 30, 2013, 04:46:31 am »

(( Must... resist... I won't... start... philosophizing... XD

Gahhh, PW, why must you bring up my 'favorite' philsophical paradoxes? Do you think I like the traps my mind lays for itself when it gets on these sort of tracks of thinking?

Relatedly, if we ever invent any form of teleportation, I am not using it. Fake cookies to whoever can tell me why. ))
Herp derp am I still me or did the original me die when I was deconstructed for teleportation oh noes
((The "am I still me" thing is the reason why the only teleporter I'm ever using is a direct space-warping "portal" type, which allows an object to pass through whole without ever losing its coherence.))
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Xantalos

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22342 on: December 30, 2013, 04:53:06 am »

((Definitely not a problem for Xan considering his talents :P))
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Parisbre56

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22343 on: December 30, 2013, 06:41:03 am »

((Now that we mentioned teleportation, are we ever going to get tinker permissions back? Or should I just tell my idea to Simus and hope she finds it good enough to research? Because I have a short range teleportation system and a gauss slingshot to develop. (Projects not related to each other).))

Tack

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22344 on: December 30, 2013, 07:56:10 am »

((Combat Team Thread is Dead.
Thought piecewise was taking time off for Christmas.
Come in here...

First instinct:
"You Whore!"

Second instinct:
"OOH QUESTIONS!"


If I may ask, what happened to the Ship of Theseus?

If I get another two for <3's sake:
Scale of 1-10 of Raw Powah, Timmy was a 5: Where would Maurice, Doc and Ivan slot in?
What is the secret behind amps? (Probably a better question than AM's humanity, but we didn't really teamwork over that one, true to ER form))

Also for a little praise where it's deserved, I truly, truly enjoy that PW seems to use Minovsky Particles rather than Handwavium. Depth in a universe is like pure crack to me and I could eat up the tiny little hints he drops and still be begging and pleading for Any way to earn a little more o' that sweet, sweet exposition.
So Bravo, Sir.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 08:20:26 am by Tack »
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22345 on: December 30, 2013, 08:43:32 am »

((Combat Team Thread is Dead.
Thought piecewise was taking time off for Christmas.
Come in here...

First instinct:
"You Whore!"

Second instinct:
"OOH QUESTIONS!"


If I may ask, what happened to the Ship of Theseus?

If I get another two for <3's sake:
Scale of 1-10 of Raw Powah, Timmy was a 5: Where would Maurice, Doc and Ivan slot in?
What is the secret behind amps? (Probably a better question than AM's humanity, but we didn't really teamwork over that one, true to ER form))

Also for a little praise where it's deserved, I truly, truly enjoy that PW seems to use Minovsky Particles rather than Handwavium. Depth in a universe is like pure crack to me and I could eat up the tiny little hints he drops and still be begging and pleading for Any way to earn a little more o' that sweet, sweet exposition.
So Bravo, Sir.
((I was going to comment on the Minovsky Particle myself, but I guess I was sidetracked by the following discussion.

The Ship of Theseus is a hypothetical ship (with, in all likelihood, many real-life counterparts) that has all of its parts replaced, plank by plank and board by board, until there's nothing but a pile of lumber that used to comprise the Ship of Theseus, and another ship that's supposedly still the Ship of Theseus, made of entirely new parts. The question is, at which point, if at any, did the ship stop being the Ship of Theseus, and became merely one like it?))
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22346 on: December 30, 2013, 10:36:10 am »

More human then Jim, for instance.
Is this when he was just a clone, or now that he's synthflesh?

((Why don't you like the implications? He's basically saying the most hopeful solution to the dilemma, that if every part of your body were replaced, then you would still be the same person.
Is it just because you don't like imagining a scenario where you would need a full body prosthesis?))
((I already knew that. Anyone claiming otherwise is discriminating against the differently fleshy.
piecewise was saying that while the AM's thoughts were human-like, but neither her genetics nor her anatomy was. Are. Whatever.))

((Then surely you come to a rather terrifying prospect do you not? Your mind and all contained within it, your memories, your identity, dreams and dreads are all but irrelevant. If Person A remains Person A despite possessing Person B's body and mind rather than their own, then would it not indicate that what makes Person A, Person A is neither contained within their body nor mind? That their thoughts, sense of self and more or less who they are does not matter?))
((How is that scary?))
((It's not, because it's stupid. It claims that the thing that makes you, you, doesn't matter.))

If at no point during the process of change the object ceases to be itself, then it will continue being itself when the changes stop.
((Wrong. Myriad slow processes have no defined beginning and ending points. Take growing up. When does a boy become a man? There is no one day you can point to and say, "He was definitely a boy yesterday, but he's definitely a man today"--nor is there a point where you can definitively say a man became old today. Similarly with rust. At what point do you say "This is really rusty, but yesterday it wasn't"? Where is the boundary line between hot and cold? How about evolution--which was the first amphibian, so identical to its parents, and yet obviously there must have been one? Or stellar evolution--when did the protostar become a star? What...well, day's the wrong term, but you know what I meant. When did the boundary between India and the rest of Asia, once so flat, become a mountain range? When does a sapling become a tree? I could go on, but I've made my point.
Just because there is no one point where an object changes identities does not mean its identity doesn't change.))

The Ship of Theseus is a hypothetical ship (with, in all likelihood, many real-life counterparts) that has all of its parts replaced, plank by plank and board by board, until there's nothing but a pile of lumber that used to comprise the Ship of Theseus, and another ship that's supposedly still the Ship of Theseus, made of entirely new parts. The question is, at which point, if at any, did the ship stop being the Ship of Theseus, and became merely one like it?))
((Is there any one point?
And we also have to consider...what makes that ship the Ship of Theseus?))
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Parisbre56

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22347 on: December 30, 2013, 10:42:24 am »

((And we also have to consider...what makes that ship the Ship of Theseus?))
((I think that as long as Theseus holds the proper legal documents for his ship and he has it registered with the port authority, then it will remain his ship no matter what. Unless he doesn't pay his taxes or it gets otherwise confiscated.))

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22348 on: December 30, 2013, 10:50:02 am »

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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: Repair and Rescue
« Reply #22349 on: December 30, 2013, 11:21:41 am »

((There are a lot of things that could be described similarly, but I personally hold to the general "identity and identification" thing. For instance. I have a PC at work, which used to be my home PC. Over the years, stuff broke down and was changed out so much that the only things possibly still remaining of the original PC tower are some of the screws, wires, and cooling fans. It never ceased to be my PC. Look at it then and look at it now, and the difference will be apparent, but so long as it is still identified, collectively, as my PC, it remains that. If I were to buy a new PC tower and transfer some of those old screws, wires, and fans into it, the proportion of the old PC remaining in the new one would be the same, yet it would no longer be my PC, as the new PC is a new identity, and adding bits of the old one does not change it.

Similarly with changes in age, time of day, temperature, etc. Look now, and look later, and unless the magnitude of change isn't significant enough, the identity will remain. There is a fuzzy barrier between definitions of "morning" and "day", for instance. If you keep checking the time of day by the second, at some point you will become certain that it's day, because it can't possibly still remain morning, yet the exact point will be determined by your criteria and your perception of the meaning of "morning" or "day". Same with an aging person, there is a threshold to cross until the new identity becomes sufficiently prevalent, but until then a person who's always been seeing a growing up man as a boy, will refer to him as a boy, and perhaps other people who haven't been growing accustomed to the changes will see a "man" rather than a "boy". It's entirely a question of identity and identification - and like I said, something of an ontological one. In your eyes, an object that does not significantly change between the times you observe it, tends to remain the same object.

It's seen quite a few times in real life, and in anime, and everywhere really. An example I can bring up is the Alt Eisen from Super Robot Wars OG. It can be blasted to bits over the course of the campaign several times, and it's constantly being repaired so much that it might as well not have any single part of its original structure intact by the middle of the game. But after a single instance of massive damage that nearly destroys it, it needs to be rebuilt. Even if it's still keeping more parts of it than remained of the original Alt Eisen after so many repairs, but now it's redesigned and sufficiently different from what it was, before the event, that it needs a new identity.

Following this line of thought, it's pretty clear that the body or the DNA is not something that determines a "person", at least in the ER-verse. There is no bodily change more drastic than having everything but the brain replaced with robotics, or for instance what Xan did to himself, yet the characters still remained themselves after such things.

What happened with Elizas was, however, closer to the mark - a combination of drastic bodily damage/transformation and psychological pressure/trauma, on top of existing mental instability, pushed him/her towards a complete character change. Well, almost complete. Still, it was a sufficient change in both body and mind that even the character him/herself came to identify as someone else.

That, I think, provides a better example to my opinion. It takes a gradient of perceived change, to change the identity of an object or person. Much like you wouldn't notice a person growing up if you live with them, yet would immediately notice the difference if you were separated for a few years.))

((ninja edit: Yes, that was also an example, though it provides a more... eh, technological tangent on the problem. With a robot, the artificial immortal brain is a rather obvious point of difference, and indeed what in-universe "defines" a robot, so it's perhaps not as relevant as it could be. Still, an interesting read. (or watch, if you're more into movies)))

((edit2: also, belated wall of text warning. Boring day, thoughts pile up. :P))
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India
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