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[Hapah]

Short on time, but this post is a good one.

I'm a town bard. I started with a scroll of hallucination and a scroll of ill will.
D1: Wand of cantrips (quest)
N1: Darvi used scroll of hallucination on Jack
D2: Scroll of protection (quest)
N2: Darvi used scroll of protection on Imiknorris
D3: Scroll of greater treasure (quest)
N3: I used scroll of ill will on NativeForeigner
D4: Scroll of protection (quest)
N4: I used scroll of protection on Hapah, was not triggered.
Current inventory: wand of cantrips, scroll of greater treasure.

The bolded part is my emphasis.

I've got an unpleasant surprise for you, Book. That Amulet of Preservation I claimed?

It's actually a Ring of Warning. It tells me that no-one visited me the last night.

Which means either you are a liar, or you "misremembered" the same way Native did. I took the chance the first time, I'm more than happy to do it again.

No more time atm, but I'll be back before night falls.

(PPE: Right here, Shakerag. And I brought us a scum all tied up with a bow!)

[Bookthras]

I've got an unpleasant surprise for you, Book. That Amulet of Preservation I claimed?It's actually a Ring of Warning. It tells me that no-one visited me the last night.

Which means either you are a liar, or you "misremembered" the same way Native did.

Good one. Too bad you broke my own gambit. The "Scroll of Protection" I used? It was actually a "Scroll of Self Defense", that will kill whatever scum hits me tonight. I was hoping to keep that secret, as I (immodestly) thought I'd be a likely target this night.

As I implied in my earlier message, claiming full inventory is misguided, as it destroys the ability of people to use clever tactics and all that. So yes, I lied about the scroll of protection, it seemed a safe cover for my clever ruse. Now the scum know that (if I don't hang today, and the game is not over whoever hangs) they risk a lot if they target me... I would have preferred them actually hitting me, but you forced me to tip my hand.

...so there we are. Now what?

[Shakerag]

Wait, what? 

...

My head is full of fuck right now. 

Extend, and Hapah:  What're your counts for each night then from your ring?

PPE:  WAIT, WHAT?

Shakerag cancels everything:  Brain fucked.

[Urist Imiknorris]

As I said, that was merely one possible scenario, not saying that's exactly what must have happened. But yes, it's entirely possible someone (alive or dead) has fakeclaimed actions, which was my original point in reply to your textbook WIFOM question; thank you for supporting it, but let's not go deeper into the wine barrel, yes? Or are you saying you are sure no one has fakeclaimed actions?

Well, Hapah's protect was confirmed, Shakerag's track is very likely true considering Tiruin's flip and the kill attempt, Native's was confirmed posthumously, and Tiruin's actual action is fairly obvious. That leaves you, me, and Jack as possible fakeclaimers. If Jack tried to kill, but got redirected to himself, and I protected him from that kill, who is left to fakeclaim but you? Did you fakeclaim your N2 protect? If so, why? If not, this scenario seems rather less possible. So I was apparently wrong about somebody else fakeclaiming - it's you or nobody (not counting Tiruin).

If Jack and I are a team, and we're not the same team as Tiruin, and one-man mafias don't exist, how can you not be Tiruin's buddy?

Jack could be Tiruin's buddy and teamed with you in a different way ("mafia-ally" or other weird 3rd party).

For case "mafia-ally," the last Toaster-modded game to have a mafia-ally did not reveal the existence of the ally to the mafia, nor the identity of the mafia to the ally. In order for that scenario to be true, Jack and I would have to have identified each other as mafia and ally by D2 in order for our interactions to be suspicious as far back as N2. And considering that I targeted Glyph N1 and Jack was randomized... How likely do you think that would be? And what other third parties would be plausible in this case? And since I know of at least one answer to that, Mod: Can two brothers be attached to the same player? And (back to Book) if you can't think of one, then how would that scenario (Jack+Urist-Tiruin) hold without you being scum?

Or if you are claiming exclusive teams with Jack, I guess Shakerag could be Tiruin's, but I doubt it. Are you claiming you're teams with Jack?

I am not claiming to be a team with Jack, and I'll request that you not put words in my mouth again.

Again, I'm not claiming certainties, merely stating that Jack seems the most scummy, his actions, answers, and reactions are scummy or suspect, and are all compatible with his being Tiruin's buddy. Your interactions with him (and your continued attempts to defend him) strike me as very suspicious, though, but I'm unclear on how to interpret them yet.

I am not defending Jack so much as I am TRYING TO GET YOU DEAD. Honestly, a scroll of solar flare would make this so much less aggravating. Besides, if there are three scum, Jack's the third. I don't know if you're bussing or mislynching, but I know you're doing one of them.

But questions for you: I notice you didn't respond to my point about your asking for an inventory claim being either ill-advised or scummy. Please tell me whether you think it would be better or worse for the town if all inventory was out in the open and why. Also, what do you think about Jack's reaction to my FoS back on my very first post on this thread?

I think it would be good for town, as knowing what options people had each night would help provide context for their actions, as well as help fight off fakeclaims along the lines of "I got item x last night and used it" should the game continue to tomorrow.

Jack's response feels genuine to me, considering that the reveal of a brother's existence is rather pointless to respond to in the first place.

PPE: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

VINDICATION

DIE BOOK YOU FUCKER

You were betting on scum hitting you? Why would they go for you over one of the confirmed-not-Tiruin-buddies? And why would you fakeclaim an item with a target instead of one without?

[Hapah]

Extend.

[Bookthras]

For case "mafia-ally,"[or other 3rd party...] Jack and I would have to have identified each other [...] How likely do you think that would be?

As easy as a common-item Scroll of Mail. Again, not saying this must have happened, just showing people it's wrong to think it couldn't. Scrolls of mail can be used during the day.

Besides, if there are three scum, Jack's the third. I don't know if you're bussing or mislynching, but I know you're doing one of them.

So... he may be scum, but you think he hasn't fakeclaimed, his actions are true, your interactions with him are all kosher, his reply to my FoS was genuine, and so on?

Please tell me whether you think it would be better or worse for the town if all inventory was out in the open and why.

I think it would be good for town, as knowing what options people had each night would help provide context for their actions, as well as help fight off fakeclaims along the lines of "I got item x last night and used it" should the game continue to tomorrow.

I didn't ask about past actions, I asked about inventory (i.e., future actions), which you explicitly requested. I said that your asking people their current inventories was either misguided or scummy. You have at least two people lying about what they had. Should they have been honest? No. The main risk of massclaims is that scumhunting is ignored in favour of convoluted plans and counterplans, claims and counterclaims, when at the end of the game it turns out that regardless of alignment, as House says, everybody lies. This shouldn't be a surprise in Mafia.

Again: if you had an artifact, would you have claimed it? Had you used a scroll of self defense, or got a ring of warning, would you have claimed it? Do you recommend town to do so or not? If yes, why? Are you surprised when they lie about them? Would unvarnished truth about inventories be good for town? If not, why demand it?

Jack, Shakerag: please also answer the questions above from your point of view.

You were betting on scum hitting you? Why would they go for you over one of the confirmed-not-Tiruin-buddies? And why would you fakeclaim an item with a target instead of one without?

"Why would scum hit that" is just drowning in wine again. I immodestly think that I'm generally a priority target, but that's just my ego talking. Why didn't I fakeclaim a non-targeting item? Honestly, I didn't think of it. I had this effect I wanted secret, so I fakeclaimed an apparently innocent action. But Hapah forced me to reveal my hand. True, there were better fakeclaims for it but I didn't give it much consideration.

[Shakerag]

Mod:  If player A uses a scroll of enchant armor on player B, player B is targeted with a scumkill, and the kill resistance triggers, will players A and B receive any notification of that? 

Unvote for now.  I'm not 100% convinced Jack is scum after re-reading.  Need time to process.

[Jack A T]

Sorry about the lack of a post yesterday.  Lost track of time.  ...extend.  PFP

[Jack A T]

Oh, sorry, missed Book's post: phone.  Will answer when I get access to hotel computrr, or at least when phone charged beyond few min. use.  Please extend: fucking schedule.  PFP

[Urist Imiknorris]

For case "mafia-ally,"[or other 3rd party...] Jack and I would have to have identified each other [...] How likely do you think that would be?

As easy as a common-item Scroll of Mail. Again, not saying this must have happened, just showing people it's wrong to think it couldn't. Scrolls of mail can be used during the day.

True, but that would still require either the ally to find the mafia or the mafia to find the ally and realize he's an ally. And you missed the part about what other third parties would work in the scenario you're thinking of (other than brother)?

Besides, if there are three scum, Jack's the third. I don't know if you're bussing or mislynching, but I know you're doing one of them.

So... he may be scum, but you think he hasn't fakeclaimed, his actions are true, your interactions with him are all kosher, his reply to my FoS was genuine, and so on?

That's how it looks to me right now, mostly because I tend to agree with his points. If the game doesn't end when you get lynched I'll reconsider. My suspicions are also held back by the thought about how stupid it would be if you two are buddies because bussing at LyLo would just be pathetic.

I think it would be good for town, as knowing what options people had each night would help provide context for their actions, as well as help fight off fakeclaims along the lines of "I got item x last night and used it" should the game continue to tomorrow.

I didn't ask about past actions, I asked about inventory (i.e., future actions), which you explicitly requested. I said that your asking people their current inventories was either misguided or scummy. You have at least two people lying about what they had. Should they have been honest? No. The main risk of massclaims is that scumhunting is ignored in favour of convoluted plans and counterplans, claims and counterclaims, when at the end of the game it turns out that regardless of alignment, as House says, everybody lies. This shouldn't be a surprise in Mafia.

*ahem*
Mostly my concern is with people trying to fakeclaim current items later. This way, it is known (or at least hopefully known) when the item was acquired, leading to questions about why <player x> would use <item y which can't be confirmed> when they had <more useful item z which could be confirmed/denied> handy. Also I didn't figure out that you are the scum (it is you) until after suggesting the massclaim.

Again: if you had an artifact, would you have claimed it? Had you used a scroll of self defense, or got a ring of warning, would you have claimed it? Do you recommend town to do so or not? If yes, why? Are you surprised when they lie about them? Would unvarnished truth about inventories be good for town? If not, why demand it?

If I had an artifact, I'd have been all "Fuck yeah, <artifact> bitches!" the day after getting it (both because I like to brag and because it'd probably make me a bigger target out of either fear or greed [unless I claimed something like using a Scroll of the Ninja Looter on an Isochron Scepter]), and if it was a consumable one I would have used it that night. Had I used a scroll of self defense, I would have claimed it (because town targeting me would be bad, yes?). Ring of warning, I would have waited and claimed last. Of course I recommend town to claim such things, because it leads (in your case at least) to not having stupid shit like a townie killing themself on you happen, which is also why I think it'd be good for town.

You were betting on scum hitting you? Why would they go for you over one of the confirmed-not-Tiruin-buddies? And why would you fakeclaim an item with a target instead of one without?

"Why would scum hit that" is just drowning in wine again. I immodestly think that I'm generally a priority target, but that's just my ego talking. Why didn't I fakeclaim a non-targeting item? Honestly, I didn't think of it. I had this effect I wanted secret, so I fakeclaimed an apparently innocent action. But Hapah forced me to reveal my hand. True, there were better fakeclaims for it but I didn't give it much consideration.

I was thinking more along the lines of "why would you assume they'd go for you." And also, see my point about it being tantamount to suicide even without your scroll. Besides, the scum haven't exactly been kill-happy since Tiruin's death.

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

Jack A T:   Bookthras, Shakerag
Bookthras:  Urist Imiknorris, Jack A T, Hapah
Shakerag:
Urist Imiknorris:
Hapah: 

Not Voting: 

Day has been Extended.  Day 5 will last until Friday, 5/18 at 11 PM EST.

Mod: Can two brothers be attached to the same player?

Yes.

Mod:  If player A uses a scroll of enchant armor on player B, player B is targeted with a scumkill, and the kill resistance triggers, will players A and B receive any notification of that? 

All A would ever know is that the enchant armor was successfully applied- any successes or fails to protect would be unknown.

B would know that his enchanted armor saved him.

Assuming C is the one attempting to kill, C would know that B was protected in some way, but not the source.

[Shakerag]

Urist: So were you attacked last night?

[Urist Imiknorris]

No.

[Urist Imiknorris]

EBWOP: Actually, I've got a quick idea that would simplify this entire process. Hapah, would you confirm the flavor for a triggered protection from the protector's end? My PM states that a little while after I put up the barrier, the wand gave a strange jerk. It stated that the magic appeared to have been activated, and that I may have saved a life.

[Hapah]

I don't think that's what mine sounded like. I've deleted the PM, though.