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[GenJeFT]

You are ALL missing the point!

Instead of arguing about bows, crossbows, swords, spears, and everything else we are ignoring the true issue at hand here!

And that is!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The effectiveness of Fluffy Wamblers as a thrown and melee weapon! How could you all miss it!?!?!

[Eric Blank]

Anyway, marksmen are great, but I prefer champion swordsdwarfs and axedwarfs.

Indeed. It's far superior though to combine them. Marksdwarves can fire into a group even during a massive melee without fear of injuring friendlies, and if the marksmen are getting shots at the enemy before the lines meet your chances of losing dwarves in the actual melee plummet due to the injuries sustained in the pincushioning.

And indeed I wish DF mimicked to some extent military tactics and the practicalities of spear and pike devision. Dwarves really should be using pikes in tunnels. I mean, there's no chance they could turn around and stab somebody that got in behind them because the pikes would be so damn unwieldy, but at least they'd have the advantage of blocking all access to a tunnel in one direction.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The effectiveness of Fluffy Wamblers as a thrown and melee weapon! How could you all miss it!?!?!

Oh god I wish I could order my dwarves to throw spears and shit before closing to melee range. It's entirely reasonable and highly effective.

[ShadowBroker]

this discussion is making dwarves sound a lot like the spartans.....im ok with this

[Loud Whispers]

Hell, you wouldn't need them to fight in tustedo or phalanx, but some way of stationing them individually better than the current system would be nice.

Just think of the concaves..

[Eric Blank]

Dorfs have about as much organization as a horde of rioting civilians right now. They'll kill something, but only because the goblins are every bit as stupid and have less skills and thusly fail their attack and defense rolls against your soldiers.

[se5a]

And indeed I wish DF mimicked to some extent military tactics and the practicalities of spear and pike devision. Dwarves really should be using pikes in tunnels. I mean, there's no chance they could turn around and stab somebody that got in behind them because the pikes would be so damn unwieldy, but at least they'd have the advantage of blocking all access to a tunnel in one direction.

This!

I've always wished this as well. a small wall of spears would be awsome 5 wide 2 deep would defend a hallway quite nicely. 
this is where the tactics skill would come in, the squad captain would change the formation (loose, tight, column, line, width, depth, or just degrade it into melee. ) choice would depend on weapon type welded , where they are stationed, what the enemy has if they can see that. and whether to advance or fall back as a group.
speardwarfs would attempt to operate in formation  - more a defensive weapon
axedwarfs would be more likely to go free for all melee once they'd closed with the enemy. - more offensive
swordsdwarfs would be middle between the two. - average at both.
and yeah, ranged would try to keep to a good range to hit the enemy, but run when enemy got close. (but still close and clobber wounded, routed enemy)

[Talvieno]

I'm a number of pages late - but I played AoE too. Awesome game, in my opinion, though very unrealistic. It's my favorite of the "Age of"'s. I think my favorite part, though, was making custom AI that could destroy anything without cheats.

OP (yes, I'm talking totally out of order): I prefer marksdwarves to start out with, but then I switch to melee/ranged - ranged weaken the enemy units, then the melee take them out. Fast and efficient. As to longbows, I never thought of testing them. I should do that. Also, yeah. Bows are pretty much superior to crossbows in real life.


I often find myself wishing for a bit more strategical elements in DF... for example, dwarves hiding in a forest and sneaking up on the enemy position from behind while they're preoccupied with the marksdwarves, then hacking them to bits before they have a chance to turn around. Unfortunately, as everyone knows, dwarves have eyes on all sides of their heads, and are incapable of being quiet, so this is impossible.

[FrisianDude]

Sorry for the derail but the ridiculous fake mythos surrounding the katana is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

And mine is the same regarding longbows.

Also; Irt cutting with a katanananana.

Did you guys seriously just have a heated argument about swords?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Anyway, marksmen are great, but I prefer champion swordsdwarfs and axedwarfs.

You really must excuse them for discussing something they are interested in, rather than something you are interested in. They don't know what they're doing.

[AWdeV]

Page one is better for comparison.

[dreiche2]

it's always the same, right? Mention longbows, and people will argue about how mind blowingly good they were and some people will go "surely they were good but they weren't as good as everyone seems to think" and then it'll go on and on for 300 pages.

Same deal with katanas as well.

Wow, I can't believe the katana discussion actually happened afterwards. You guys are doing satire right? 

So yeah. Btw, ASCII users are all elitists, and danger rooms are for cowards, right?

[Hotaru]

A truly embarrassing thread. Westerners arguing as if the 500-year old nihonto or the European swords were one thing, possibly the same thing as replicas. It's as if there were Japanese people here discussing how van Gogh would have been much better if he had had access to Adobe Photoshop. I literally become blushed with vicarious shame. Let's hope it was a joke.

[FrisianDude]

And what does that mean?

Bows are pretty much superior to crossbows in real life.

Now that's just a silly remark. The bow had been available for centuries if not millennia before the crossbow was developed; if the bow was so superior why would anyone even THINK of making a crossbow?

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Also, yeah. Bows are pretty much superior to crossbows in real life.

let's not start this again, it's pants on head retarded

[Mistercheif]

What? I missed a heated argument about swords?
I wish I been there, just to say.. I like Katanas. *runs and hides*

Hey, so do I.  Though it is mainly based on being a martial artist, and training with it, as opposed to any merits of the swords design itself.  A weapon you can handle and have trained to fight with is always better than a weapon you have no idea how to use.

Therefore, making fluffy wamblers the most dangerous and accessible weapon of all, as pretty much everybody knows how to throw stuff.

[Andal]

A truly embarrassing thread. Westerners arguing as if the 500-year old nihonto or the European swords were one thing, possibly the same thing as replicas. It's as if there were Japanese people here discussing how van Gogh would have been much better if he had had access to Adobe Photoshop. I literally become blushed with vicarious shame. Let's hope it was a joke.

Not quite sure what thread you were reading or how you got to this particular conclusion (if I am understanding you correctly).

But I assure you, there is plenty of research on these topics (Eastern and Western swords, warfare and metallurgy) that has nothing to do with swinging modern replicas at each other. Which is what I was basing my points on, at least, though I can't necessarily speak for everyone else.

Katanas (and their variously sized brethren) are cool and fun to learn about, like all other sharp and shinies. And liking them is cool too, especially when it leads to learning more about them.

Felt I needed to add that as a disclaimer.