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[Dariush]

Wuba:

But your reasoning doesn't show you think he's scum. Why would he claim to be a werebear? The only reason would be if he were not scum. But, that is WIFOM and not really a part of my reasoning.

Just as a guess, he did that because he expected people to think that the scumteam are werewolves so, being a werebear, he isn't part of it. However, I believe that all werecreatures, regardless of their actual species, are scum.

Why do you assume he is fakeclaiming PGO? You said he was fakeclaiming Vigilante, and I disagreed. I think he softclaimed Vigilante purposefully to draw a kill toward himself. I never said he was fakeclaiming PGO.

Even ignoring the 'missed night' argument somewhere below, fakeclaiming vig as PGO is about the dumbest thing a PGO can do, since it will attract protects as well as NKs. It doesn't matter whether the fakeclaim is soft or hard. If scum can see through it, so will the doctors.

1. Because it is more likely than him being scum. If he were scum, it is unlikely he would have claimed any sort of were-creature

WIFOM.

I also believe he claimed this after a dead Werewolf popped up, which shows, to me, that he is not... "scum," for lack of a better term.

See first paragraph.

OB:

Because I didn't want him getting anywhere near LYLO. Survivors near LYLO are dangerous, as are SKs(which is what I thought he was before he flipped).

Earlier you said you believed his survivor claim. Lying about your previous actions is not nice.

Native:

I have no actions. NativeForeigner and I are coven witches. (web: witches = masons)

Care to confirm?

Uh, what? Did you really think that UI could possibly have lied about being a witch?

IO:

2) did so immediatly before Toaster got lynched;

If you wanted me to claim earlier you should have voted to extend. Or at least made it clear that you weren't going to, in a pinch.

Wait what. Seriously, WHAT. You fucking delayed your claim until the last possible minute and now you accuse people of not extending? ...If I wasn't already absolutely sure you're scum I'd have voted you just for that.

There really wasn't any other way to do it without looking awkward or claiming straight up. It was more intended to be an example than a literal claim, though.

Claiming what? An example of what? How can you claim and then claim not to have claimed?

I have no idea what you're talking about. How was ZU guaranteed town?

How about getting two correct inspections and revealing them under circumstances under which scum wouldn't have done it?

And which of these do you think is more common?

Oh I don't even know. (hint: that's sarcasm) If you were a doctor with a claimed vig out there, wouldn't you protect him?

Furthermore, if this was my plan why would I switch to PGO, ie the exact opposite for both goals, at the last minute?

Why are you asking me? I don't know about your intentions. What was your goal, anyway?

Oh hey, you utterly destroyed all my pretenses of not being scum. Huh. Well, let's all have a laugh about it and forget about the whole thing, shall we?

[IronyOwl]

Dariush:

However, I believe that all werecreatures, regardless of their actual species, are scum.

Why?

2) did so immediatly before Toaster got lynched;

If you wanted me to claim earlier you should have voted to extend. Or at least made it clear that you weren't going to, in a pinch.

Wait what. Seriously, WHAT. You fucking delayed your claim until the last possible minute and now you accuse people of not extending? ...If I wasn't already absolutely sure you're scum I'd have voted you just for that.

I wasn't waiting for the last possible minute, I was waiting for another exchange with zombie urist. I even mentioned as much when you were bitching at me about not claiming yet.

But, even aside from that, if it was so utterly important that I claim comfortably before the day ended, why didn't you extend to make sure that happened? You can't claim it's hyper-important now when you couldn't be assed to do anything about it at the time, and you especially can't claim I'm scummy because I tried but failed while that's happening.

There really wasn't any other way to do it without looking awkward or claiming straight up. It was more intended to be an example than a literal claim, though.

Claiming what? An example of what? How can you claim and then claim not to have claimed?

I know you're not really this stupid.

Off the top of my head, you know that quote I edited? "I'm terrified of vigs, can we kill IronyOwl now?" That's an example of it being an example. It displays my take on ZU's thought process, rather than trying to insinuate to others that I'm a vig.

I have no idea what you're talking about. How was ZU guaranteed town?

How about getting two correct inspections and revealing them under circumstances under which scum wouldn't have done it?

I still don't follow. How are Fortune Tellers mutually exclusive with scum, especially after Tiruin flipped Illusionist? And why wouldn't scum have revealed a Killer result at the start of the day, stalled on the first result, and then returned a Survivor goal?

And which of these do you think is more common?

Oh I don't even know. (hint: that's sarcasm) If you were a doctor with a claimed vig out there, wouldn't you protect him?

This is retarded. Please do one of the following:

1. Admit you're wrong and this is dumb

2. Clearly and overtly claim that scum NKing a vig is less likely than a doctor protecting a vig. Then explain why, with actual reasoning rather than a sarcastic rhetorical question you obviously haven't thought through.

Furthermore, if this was my plan why would I switch to PGO, ie the exact opposite for both goals, at the last minute?

Why are you asking me? I don't know about your intentions. What was your goal, anyway?

Massive dodge. If you don't know about my intentions, you're obviously not in a position to claim I'm scum because of them. Get a real case or stop trying.

Oh hey, you utterly destroyed all my pretenses of not being scum. Huh. Well, let's all have a laugh about it and forget about the whole thing, shall we?

"All my pretenses" being "that Fortune Teller is also not on the list." I don't know why, but I'm town and a werebear. Deal with it.

[ToonyMan]

I thought you said Dariush was a good scumhunter IronyOwl?  I don't see the problem here.

[IronyOwl]

I thought you said Dariush was a good scumhunter IronyOwl?  I don't see the problem here.

I said he was unusually townlike, and he was. I'm still not convinced he's being scummy and not just dumb here, either.

What is it you don't you have a problem with?

[ToonyMan]

...His points on you.

-Waiting until last minute to claim Day 3 (while being unhelpful)
-Claiming a role that isn't a town role and claiming you are town

I don't know why, but I'm town and a werebear. Deal with it.

"I just don't know how or why but it's true!"
-Saying that you are a vig (which would be to cover for Zombie's killer rolecheck on you) and also a PGO, I can't agree with that.

Yeah I doubt you're town.  I agree with your vote on Powder Miner though, I'd rather he was lynched since unlike Dariush I don't think you have a team while PM clearly does.

[Jokerman-EXE]

I'm very interested in IronyOwl's answers to the questions posed to him about his roleclaim.

Nothing new to add at all?

Nope. How about you? You've tacked on a lurker vote to appear active, and then answered Irony's questions without fielding any new points. So I don't see how you can talk.

I'm very interested in IronyOwl's answers to the questions posed to him about his roleclaim.

Which ones and why?

These:

And Irony, why did you spend all of yesterday hinting that you were a vig only to claim PGO right before day end?

This was a good one, because your reasoning seemed... well, non-existent, but you have since satisfied that.

IronyOwl.

I'm voting Darvi partially on Toaster's word, partially because he's been fairly useless and opaque otherwise, and partially because I'm dubious of there really being three priests.

This vote has very little in the way of actual justification. You're voting him because Toaster said so(which is incredibly lazy), because he's been acting as his meta says he should be if he were town, and because you don't think there could be three priests. Oh, but wait, there could be any number of roles in the game. Removing priests isn't the only way that Meph could balance them; they could be impious(as evidenced by Toaster's botched ressurection).

This was a good one as well. I understand that sometimes another player's arguments can start to look more and more correct, but this came off as lazy and similar in nature to a bandwagon; the arguments were good enough, so you didn't need to add much of your own. I'm also very wary of arguments based on role balancing, since there's no way for anyone but Meph to know what the real balance is.

[Dariush]

IO, your intentional stalling and pointless detailed arguing over every point finally got on my nerves.

I never said doctor protecting claimed vig is more likely than scum killing said vig. I said that such possibility exists. You kept trying to twist my words. Now answer my direct fucking question.

What did you try to achieve by softclaiming vig?

Oh, and more thing - all town roles are always listed in the OP. There's absolutely, utterly no way you could be town. Incredibly stretching the guess, one could say that maybe you're third party and not scum. But town? No. Fucking. Way. If you were third party, however, I see no reason for you to keep calling yourself town and not claiming straight-up. Which makes you scum.

[IronyOwl]

ToonyMan:

...His points on you.

This is incredibly lazy, then, because I just responded to them, and you have nothing to say except "Nah." ? You sure you're still Town?

-Waiting until last minute to claim Day 3 (while being unhelpful)
-Saying that you are a vig (which would be to cover for Zombie's killer rolecheck on you) and also a PGO, I can't agree with that.

I wasn't waiting for the last possible minute, I was waiting for another exchange with zombie urist. I even mentioned as much when you were bitching at me about not claiming yet.

But, even aside from that, if it was so utterly important that I claim comfortably before the day ended, why didn't you extend to make sure that happened? You can't claim it's hyper-important now when you couldn't be assed to do anything about it at the time, and you especially can't claim I'm scummy because I tried but failed while that's happening.
I know you're not really this stupid.

Off the top of my head, you know that quote I edited? "I'm terrified of vigs, can we kill IronyOwl now?" That's an example of it being an example. It displays my take on ZU's thought process, rather than trying to insinuate to others that I'm a vig.

-Claiming a role that isn't a town role and claiming you are town

"I just don't know how or why but it's true!"

Yeah, almost like I was handed it instead of thinking up a nice feasible fakeclaim.

Also, you quoted this part but had nothing to say about my response to your (ie Dariush's) points? Why is that?

Yeah I doubt you're town.  I agree with your vote on Powder Miner though, I'd rather he was lynched since unlike Dariush I don't think you have a team while PM clearly does.

I take this to mean you no longer think I'm Tiruin's scumbuddy, and that your assertion that I was defending him was wrong?



Jokerman:

I'm also very wary of arguments based on role balancing, since there's no way for anyone but Meph to know what the real balance is.

Yeah, but three of anything strikes me as pretty odd, especially when that anything is as gamechanging as a rezzer. I wouldn't lynch him just off that, but I'd certainly request his take on it.



Dariush:

IO, your intentional stalling and pointless detailed arguing over every point finally got on my nerves.

So you didn't extend and then blamed me for not extending because you were pissed at my method of scumhunting ZU?

I never said doctor protecting claimed vig is more likely than scum killing said vig. I said that such possibility exists. You kept trying to twist my words. Now answer my direct fucking question.

So this was you admitting that you were wrong?

And which of these do you think is more common?

Oh I don't even know. (hint: that's sarcasm) If you were a doctor with a claimed vig out there, wouldn't you protect him?

It doesn't look like this is you admitting you were wrong.

What did you try to achieve by softclaiming vig?

I already explained this. If you'd responded to each point in my previous post, instead of trying to brush it under the rug because it points out that you have no case, you'd have gotten to where I elaborated on your bewildered question of my explanation of it, and could have either comprehended it or pointed out a problem with it. Instead we get this shit.


Speaking of which, you still haven't answered my questions on why werecreature = scum and why ZU's actions were the actions of a confirmed townie. You've also not responded to my assertion that admitting you don't know my intentions means you have no case, but honestly that's not really salvageable anyway.

Oh, and more thing - all town roles are always listed in the OP. There's absolutely, utterly no way you could be town. Incredibly stretching the guess, one could say that maybe you're third party and not scum. But town? No. Fucking. Way. If you were third party, however, I see no reason for you to keep calling yourself town and not claiming straight-up. Which makes you scum.

No, they're not, because I am one. It's physically possible there's some weirdness with alignment changing, but otherwise I'm a town werebear, full stop, and trying to assertively state otherwise and for no other reason (other than perhaps "he pisses me off") in a closed setup is foolish at best.

[ToonyMan]

As you so nicely put it before it's a neutral point.  Also it just wouldn't explain PM's behavior unless something totally full-blown was going on.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Jokerman:

Nope. How about you? You've tacked on a lurker vote to appear active, and then answered Irony's questions without fielding any new points. So I don't see how you can talk.

I don't need to appear active - I contribute when I have something to say, and what I have to say is: you promised content and then failed to deliver until I had to press you on it. Also, nice deflection attempt.

Who are your top two scumpicks other than Irony?

Irony: Meph has confirmed that we know we both started the game as town.

Powder Miner and Orangebottle, are you going to do any actual scumhunting?

[Dariush]

No, they're not, because I am one.

You're a cretin.

[NativeForeigner]

Irony Owl.

No, they're not, because I am one. It's physically possible there's some weirdness with alignment changing, but otherwise I'm a town werebear, full stop, and trying to assertively state otherwise and for no other reason (other than perhaps "he pisses me off") in a closed setup is foolish at best.

So you're saying that Meph was lying when he said that all available town roles would be known? Because that's what it seems like. This isn't a bastard mod last I checked and if werebear was an available town role, we'd know it.

[IronyOwl]

ToonyMan:

As you so nicely put it before it's a neutral point.  Also it just wouldn't explain PM's behavior unless something totally full-blown was going on.

I don't get it.



Dariush:

No, they're not, because I am one.

You're a cretin.

Go hunt scum.



Native:

Irony Owl.

So you're saying that Meph was lying when he said that all available town roles would be known? Because that's what it seems like. This isn't a bastard mod last I checked and if werebear was an available town role, we'd know it.

That or there's shenanigans going on. Are you saying I wouldn't have looked at that list if I was fakeclaiming scum?

Werebear is also a perfect role for encouraging "werecreatures = scum" style suspicions, which don't really work if the role is explicitly mentioned on the front page. I doubt "werebeats = not on townlist" was intended, but it could have been.

[Orangebottle]

Orangebottle:

Firstly, I'd like to point out the OMGUS.

Then...

I'm voting him because Toaster's logic started to seem more plausible, not because I'm blindly obeying Toaster. Perhaps that was worded poorly.

Still lazy.

I'd also like more information out of him, because I don't have much yet. Do you object to me voting Darvi in an attempt to scumhunt him?

I'd have no problem with you scumhunting Darvi, if he was actually doing things. As-is, you're 'scumhunting'(read: you asked him a single question) a meta-lurker, which is useless.

What would be an acceptable reason to vote Darvi to you?

I don't remember any reason to think that Darvi's scum yet.

Finally, I never said three priests was impossible. I said I was dubious of it, and would like his opinion on it. Do you think fakeclaiming scum taking credit for a priest rez is impossible?

Yes. The actual priest would counter-claim, unless killed, in which case people would figure it out when the other two claimed. Why do you think fakeclaiming scum is more likely?

Which do you think is more likely- three priests or fakeclaiming scum taking credit for a slain one?

Three priests, due to the above logic.

Because I didn't want him getting anywhere near LYLO. Survivors near LYLO are dangerous, as are SKs(which is what I thought he was before he flipped).

He was an outed "SK" claiming to be willing to work for town. What about a puppet vig was so dangerous that he had to be dealt with on Day 2 to prevent him reaching LYLO?

Firstly, he was much less beneficial than you make him out to be. He could only kill every other day, for one. We'd be lynching and getting NK'd each day, resulting in two deaths every day.  We'd have eight other players. Let's assume that we have two scum.

9p Lynch, Kill
7p Lynch, Kill, Toasterkill
4p -Endgame, depending on how many scum are left.

He'd have one chance to use his kill at all(and scum could've just NK'd him last night). It would actually get us to LYLO faster if we didn't hit scum at all.

Didn't you have any better targets? Did you have any other targets at all?

I was suspicious of both you and Zombie for withholding information. Don't you remember that?

[Orangebottle]

EBWOP:

Dariush:

OB:

Because I didn't want him getting anywhere near LYLO. Survivors near LYLO are dangerous, as are SKs(which is what I thought he was before he flipped).

Earlier you said you believed his survivor claim. Lying about your previous actions is not nice.

When did I say that?

Native:

I have no actions. NativeForeigner and I are coven witches. (web: witches = masons)

Care to confirm?

Uh, what? Did you really think that UI could possibly have lied about being a witch?

Yes. Why didn't you?