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[frostshotgg]

I believe the last straw for him was that he was convinced eloraam was copying a ton of content from him. Also, I was mistaken about the video still being at the top of his thread. It's not there any more.

EDIT: I got curious for his exact wording and popped up with this gem.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I was determined to keep this out of the public eye, but since one of the other parties involved seems to have no problems publicly justifying her actions:

Well, it comes down to two things:

-My participation in the Forge has facilitated the creation of unauthorized mod-packs.
-I can't stand working with Eloraam.

I have nothing but respect for SpaceToad, but Eloraam's ever increasing trend of ripping-off functionality from other major Forge mods, and dominating the development of what was supposed to be a communal API to suit her own development agenda, turning it into this bloated mass that only she's able to maintain, is just not something I have any desire to collaborate with.

She's an extremely talented programmer, and I used to get along with her quite well, but a month or two ago (around the time she released Flax and Pipes in RP), I realized I couldn't stand it anymore and largely dropped out of development of the Forge. Considering she's now the primary developer on the API, and I don't even want to talk to her anymore, leaving BTW dependent on her is not something I'm at all comfortable with.

Since then, I haven't submitted a single hook and have just gone back to making my own base-class modifications to avoid having to deal with her. That obviously leaves me as an outsider in the development of the API, and considering how dependent BTW is on it, I'm feeling increasingly uncomfortable about it.

So yeah, that's the story. I've been keeping it under my hat for the sake of preserving the peace, but it's reached the point now where it makes very little difference whether I do or not.

Yeah, affecting the users is where this becomes a question for me rather than just a clear-cut decision. Honestly, if not for the people using the mod, and how it would affect them, I would have ejected from the Forge long ago.

I don't use other mods, so from a personal standpoint, I really couldn't care less about compatibility. However, I know a lot of other people do, and have no doubt about it: if I took this step, you wouldn't be able to play BTW and ANY Forge mod together. Compatibility would be completely broken in a far more pronounced way than before the Forge existed.

That's largely why I wanted to discuss this here. I'd really like to know how such a move would affect the people that play BTW the most.

It is a technical thing too, a lot of recent Forge edits have become largely pervasive to the game and compatibility with other mods, just for the sake of having complex RedPower features.

^^^^ This ^^^^

She really has no sense of moderation when it comes to these things and routinely rewrites large portions of vMC to get the features she desires, which also leads to her being the only person that knows how the whole thing works, and whom is capable of maintaining it.

We got into big arguments about that when the Forge first came together, but I eventually conceded, which in retrospect, was a huge mistake.

The actual video that used to be plastered all over the BTW thread.

x2 EDIT COMBO: Further down the page, Ablaka mentions his thoughts about the situation, and also that Eloraam is decidedly not the dirty copycat that flowerbaby claims she is.

[LoSboccacc]

She has gotten a load of her features from other mods, and should someone make a mod like hers...

I think it was a different issue there; she was not complaining about copying, but about mod that integrated on beta parts of her own mods

[frostshotgg]

I can only think of pipes. They're pretty critical since about 3/4s of redpower is nothing but ways to sort items. The only way for her to do that without overlapping with BC would be to break redpower and the sorting stuff into two separate mods and make the latter a BC addon. And honestly, it's not entirely her fault that the way BC pipes are make it all but impossible to do what tubes do without some serious code overhaul. Even logistics pipes, which are basically tubes but work as pipes, suffers from many of the same problems as regular pipes, like eating up a ton of data (I've never had problems with this myself, but I've talked with people who say that they basically can't play on servers with large pipe networks because of some bandwidth issues or something. Never thought to inquire in more detail) or generally being messy due to not having a system like multiblocks, so you have to use different types of pipes for each functionality like sandstone or cobble/stone. I think the one advantage that pipes have over tubes are the pipe logic gates. I have a sneaking suspicion that were it not for the fact eloraam doesn't especially want to tread on toes, she'd probably add them to tubes.

[MagmaMcFry]

I can only think of pipes. They're pretty critical since about 3/4s of redpower is nothing but ways to sort items. The only way for her to do that without overlapping with BC would be to break redpower and the sorting stuff into two separate mods and make the latter a BC addon. And honestly, it's not entirely her fault that the way BC pipes are make it all but impossible to do what tubes do without some serious code overhaul. Even logistics pipes, which are basically tubes but work as pipes, suffers from many of the same problems as regular pipes, like eating up a ton of data (I've never had problems with this myself, but I've talked with people who say that they basically can't play on servers with large pipe networks because of some bandwidth issues or something. Never thought to inquire in more detail) or generally being messy due to not having a system like multiblocks, so you have to use different types of pipes for each functionality like sandstone or cobble/stone. I think the one advantage that pipes have over tubes are the pipe logic gates. I have a sneaking suspicion that were it not for the fact eloraam doesn't especially want to tread on toes, she'd probably add them to tubes.

Pipe gates aren't really that useful on tubes, since they're useful mostly for pipe wire, but Elo has tons of cables for that, and the only other pipe-related gate function is the "stuff passing through" thing, which Elo has implemented with the item detector already. So I don't really see why Elo would want to put gates on her tubes.

[LoSboccacc]

She has gotten a load of her features from other mods, and should someone make a mod like hers...

I think it was a different issue there; she was not complaining about copying, but about mod that integrated on beta parts of her own mods

Who's this you're on about?

eloraam vs immnibis on the rpic mod

[The Darkling Wolf]

Yeah, I really don't see why she did that. If I have a feature planned for Cataclysm, and someone else adds a mod that submits that feature, I don't go and delete it. Even if I want to implement it differently to them, I'd leave their mod intact until such a time as I add the feature myself.

[frostshotgg]

rpic thing? Can someone clarify? This is news to me.

[The Darkling Wolf]

Immibis made a power converter mod to convert BT to EU and back, Eloraam demanded that Alblaka remove it.

[0x517A5D]

If I'm wrong?  If they really can't get along with Eloraam?  If they want' nothing to do with her?  Branch the fuckin' code, compete, and let the market decide.  Do it better and show us, goddamnit!

You know that this can't happen. There could only be one version of forge. Any other would be incompatible and cause more confusion than any good.

There's gonna be some incompatibility, sure.  That's the entire reason for this hypothetical fork, to make a Forge-alike with other stuff too.

But if I fork off "Blast Furnace" that adds, say, hooks to support changing gravity's direction and intensity, there's nothing stopping me from tracking and merging vanilla Forge's bug-fixes and updates.  There's a whole class of programmer utilities, called Source Code Control Systems, that are literally made to solve the fork-merge problem.

And it can work the other way, too.  If the Forge devs like pieces of Blast Furnace, they can merge that code in.  (If the licensing permits.  The license on everything that Blast Furnace copied from Forge will permit that, the license on the new code in Blast Furnace is up to the authors.)

Or the Forge devs can copy the interface but reimplement the internals.  (The Oracle vs. Google decision indicates that APIs aren't copyrightable.)

So the situation would probably end up as each modder saying "This mod works with Forge and with Blast Furnace," or "This mod requires Blast Furnace," or "This mod was written for Forge, support for Blast Furnace is untested."

And it'll be a bit confusing, but not terribly.  Until the market decides which one is better, or the projects get merged again, or Blast Furnace literally becomes the new Forge, like the EGCS fork of GCC that was so successful that it became the official version.


Fakeedit:

Who's this you're on about?

eloraam vs immnibis on the rpic mod

Oh, now, that did piss me off.  "Please stop making your addon mod that works with my mod, because I have a better solution coming Real Soon Now."

No, Eloraam, you should let the market decide.

At least she asked rather than making threats or changing her own mod's code to mess up the addon mod.  (Cough flowerchild cough.)


Realedit:

Immibis made a power converter mod to convert BT to EU and back, Eloraam demanded that Alblaka remove it.

I thought she asked, not demanded.  It's a bit fuzzy in my mind at this remove, but I'm pretty sure.

Actually, here.  Google for immibis eloraam remove blutricity site:industrial-craft.net.  It's the top result.

[Sergius]

If I'm wrong?  If they really can't get along with Eloraam?  If they want' nothing to do with her?  Branch the fuckin' code, compete, and let the market decide.  Do it better and show us, goddamnit!

Well, all it takes is for Eloraam to make a few calls and your fork gets pulled down from all the major sites.

I don't care about hooks, but I do about her strongarming submodders into compliance by calling on favors.

At least she asked rather than making threats or changing her own mod's code to mess up the addon mod.  (Cough flowerchild cough.)


Realedit:

Immibis made a power converter mod to convert BT to EU and back, Eloraam demanded that Alblaka remove it.

I thought she asked, not demanded.  It's a bit fuzzy in my mind at this remove, but I'm pretty sure.

Actually, here.  Google for immibis eloraam remove blutricity site:industrial-craft.net.  It's the top result.

Code: [Select]

Unauthorized modification.
I wasn't consulted and didn't give permission for this mod.

In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that.

Please remove it.
Seems more like a demand to me. ("please" doesn't make it "nice")

Note that she made Alblaka remove it regardless of what immibis thought (whether immibis later felt humbled with her presence and just relented isn't relevant to me).

[forsaken1111]

Also, the guy that made forestry.

'I don't like my mod being in technic. Therefore, if ANYONE adds it, it will look for technic, and if it finds it, it will fuck up your world!

There was a lot more to it than that. They included the mod without asking permission. When he did ask for it to be removed, they told him they would not do so. So for ONE release, he had all bee hives or apiaries (don't remember which) explode on load. Thats all. It didn't 'fuck up your world', It was some petty revenge for them being dicks about the whole mess.

[forsaken1111]

Well yeah, but IIRC, he at least planned to make it so that it checked to see whether you added it to the technic pack, causing it to do that stuff.
Basically, even if it was just someone wanting to play with his/her favourite mods, he wouldn't allow it.

iirc it just looked for the technic launcher in the minecraft folder. Sure it was dickish, but so was what they were doing. I don't condone either action, just letting you know it was more that 'lol tekkit u suck boom' and no permanent harm was done to anyone's world. You made it sound like he knowingly corrupted their game or something.

[The Darkling Wolf]

Last I checked, he never asked for it to be removed at all. Not directly anyway.

[Trapezohedron]

Well, whatever the reason, it affected most of the end user base rather harshly, so I guess it's still a dickish move.

We all know that we don't have all day to rebuild everything that blew up because of that code.

If I'm wrong?  If they really can't get along with Eloraam?  If they want' nothing to do with her?  Branch the fuckin' code, compete, and let the market decide.  Do it better and show us, goddamnit!

Well, all it takes is for Eloraam to make a few calls and your fork gets pulled down from all the major sites.

I don't care about hooks, but I do about her strongarming submodders into compliance by calling on favors.

At least she asked rather than making threats or changing her own mod's code to mess up the addon mod.  (Cough flowerchild cough.)


Realedit:

Immibis made a power converter mod to convert BT to EU and back, Eloraam demanded that Alblaka remove it.

I thought she asked, not demanded.  It's a bit fuzzy in my mind at this remove, but I'm pretty sure.

Actually, here.  Google for immibis eloraam remove blutricity site:industrial-craft.net.  It's the top result.

Code: [Select]

Unauthorized modification.
I wasn't consulted and didn't give permission for this mod.

In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that.

Please remove it.
Seems more like a demand to me. ("please" doesn't make it "nice")

Note that she made Alblaka remove it regardless of what immibis thought (whether immibis later felt humbled with her presence and just relented isn't relevant to me).

And this is why we can't have nice things.

[Viken]

Really, it all comes down to the mod developers and coders covering their asses.  As modding is considered a 'grey' legal area in the gaming industry, most modders use either public or private source agreements to make sure they cannot be sued by the companies they make their mods for.

In the end, it requires that permissions and exceptions be made when included into modpacks and extrenous developements to the mod; otherwise they leave themselves legally vulnerable, and no one wants that.  The first time a major game developer sues a popular modder will bring on the apocolypse, I tell you! Anyway, mods are still considered IP, and as such ahve to be treated that way.

But as much of this stuff has been going on for a while now, I have no bloody idea of what is happening in MC Mod-land.  I enjoy the mods I like, don't touch or use the mods I don't, and do not try to publish modpacks with my own name on them without permission. End of story.