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[fqllve]

You all certainly speak like people with no experience with children, especially your own.

You can make that assumption, sure, but it doesn't make it true. First I'm speaking from personal experience as a child. Which is to say, beatings never made me want to behave better but they did make me want to get better at not getting caught. Second, I'm speaking from personal experience as someone authorized to use corporal punishment on my younger siblings who I was quite often left in charge of. Third, I'm speaking from personal observation of corporal punishment and its results.

It's a short-term solution, you might end the behavior right there (or you might cause a huge tantrum in the middle of Wal-Mart) but it certainly isn't going to prevent the behavior from occurring in the future unless the punishments are particularly draconian.

ed: Also, in my house a beating, or a whooping, was a spanking with an object, such as a spatula or belt, not drunken physical abuse.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

It's a short-term solution, you might end the behavior right there (or you might cause a huge tantrum in the middle of Wal-Mart) but it certainly isn't going to prevent the behavior from occurring in the future unless the punishments are particularly draconian.

ed: Also, in my house a beating, or a whooping, was a spanking with an object, such as a spatula or belt, not drunken physical abuse.

That is a slight more harsh than any type of punishment I've given/seen as a child.

Do you see why you have a different opinion?

Different experiences with terrible parents doesn't make it a good idea to equate any/all punishment with outright abuse or just hostility, which in my case it's neither.

What do you do when someone breaks the law? Leave them be with a warning?

[kaijyuu]

Spanking and beating a child are two completely different things.

...


You've got some wacky definitions. Not trying to debate semantics, so I presume you believe violence is alright so long as it doesn't leave physical scars.

If I'm reading you right, you're saying pain is pain, whether it's inflicting boredom by sitting in a corner or by inflicting some physical pain from spanking, so neither is really worse than the other. I actually agree on that part, if that's what you're saying, but I take the opposite conclusion; each is useless except to teach fear, which is again, only useful as a stopgap. Some people are idiots and won't listen to reason, so it might be the only course of action to stop the behavior, but it will never fix the root of the problem, and has its own consequences (like reinforcing that making people fear you is an acceptable course of action, and that doing these things is okay so long as you don't get caught, since the only reason they wouldn't do it is because they'd get punished). Damn that's one long sentence.

[darkrider2]

As a person in high school I support the physical discipline of children.

Its common terminology here to say that someone making threats don't mean nothing if they can't back it up. (The YOU WONT DO NUTTIN taunt) I'm a good kid, but I've met my fair share of assholes who think they're untouchable and frankly any kind of physical behavior enforcement from above would have been a good thing for em.

[fqllve]

Are you suggesting I was physically abused as a child? Because that is extraordinarily offensive. Not only to me but to children who actually had to suffer physical abuse.

[darkrider2]

Are you suggesting I was physically abused as a child? Because that is extraordinarily offensive. Not only to me but to children who actually had to suffer physical abuse.

This is no place to take things personally, and I don't think anyone was saying that.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Are you suggesting I was physically abused as a child? Because that is extraordinarily offensive. Not only to me but to children who actually had to suffer physical abuse.

Okay then. Moving along.

[bombzero]

You all certainly speak like people with no experience with children, especially your own.

You can make that assumption, sure, but it doesn't make it true. First I'm speaking from personal experience as a child. Which is to say, beatings never made me want to behave better but they did make me want to get better at not getting caught. Second, I'm speaking from personal experience as someone authorized to use corporal punishment on my younger siblings who I was quite often left in charge of. Third, I'm speaking from personal observation of corporal punishment and its results.

It's a short-term solution, you might end the behavior right there (or you might cause a huge tantrum in the middle of Wal-Mart) but it certainly isn't going to prevent the behavior from occurring in the future unless the punishments are particularly draconian.

ed: Also, in my house a beating, or a whooping, was a spanking with an object, such as a spatula or belt, not drunken physical abuse.

^agreed on many points.

My parents originally tried spanking, grounding, taking items away, etc. and the one thing i gathered from it, it did not work, just made me want to not get caught.
however I actually explained to my parents why teaching children WHY something is wrong is far more effective than any physical or psychological punishment. (shocking aint it?  )

so i have to say that if you think beating/spanking a child, or taking something away actually helps, you are quite misconceived.

@OP, i think unarmed combat classes would just lead to more stupidity, judging by how people who learn eastern martial arts for 'self-defense' apply their knowledge.
unrelated; I personally am a self-taught fighter, and actually aim to kill whoever im fighting. but i never start fights, they are pretty stupid.
I see fighting as a matter of survival, but most teenagers around my age see it as a social tool, to gain status in their school/group of friends.
teaching them how to fight would simply make these 'social status' fights deadly/dangerous, instead of pitiful prissy fits.

I'm not advocating corporal punishment solely, it should be used with positive reinforcement.

^ Not every behavioral issue comes with a pacifistic resolution, especially with already-malevolent children that are hellbent on being shits.

sadly, there are quite a few children 'hellbent on being shits' around the world today, it seems to be caused by pampering from the parents who fold to every whine, but thats just my observation.
it may also be a leading contributor to the number of horrendously inhuman creatures who inhabit most online communities today, when people grow up getting everything they want, they tend to lose many key life lessons.

now if somebody believes this is somehow wrong based on me being a teenager in high school, i stopped being a teenager mentally quite some time ago due to trials in my life, it taught me that going through hard times and not getting what you want everyday makes you a better person, i see many people who get a new Iphone every other month, since they cannot take care of them, and their parents are perfectly happy to shell out hundreds a year for it, in general these people tend to have quite poor social skills (real ones, not the ability to make friends) and consider themselves higher than others.

As a person in high school I support the physical discipline of children.

Its common terminology here to say that someone making threats don't mean nothing if they can't back it up. (The YOU WONT DO NUTTIN taunt) I'm a good kid, but I've met my fair share of assholes who think they're untouchable and frankly any kind of physical behavior enforcement from above would have been a good thing for em.

while this is a slightly different way of stating it, it does actually go with my point above, frankly that feeling of invincibility is a combination of hormones, and being treated like demi-gods by their parents.
now physical punishment simply breeds resentment and causes whole hosts of other problems, honestly it depends on HOW the child is punished, some parents employ spanking effectively, but they do so by explaining why what the child did was wrong afterwords. if a child is simply beaten/spanked without an explanation, it makes them angry, even if they are aware themselves of why it was wrong.
(Im also a good kid, but ill still jam my elbow in someones chest for acting big and tough to me.  )

EDIT: it may be a good idea to point out that several posts were made while i was writing this wall of text, just in case it seems rambling, it is.

[fqllve]

Okay, it just seemed like you were jumping to conclusions about the quality of my childhood from a couple offhand remarks without knowing the frequency at which they occurred, what ages they occurred at, the prevalence of such things among the culture I grew up in, and the actual severity of the punishments. I was not abused as a child. Spankings were infrequent and whoopings even moreso because I was generally well-behaved. Furthermore my mom is kind of a sissy so I rarely experienced actual pain.

And no, I don't automatically equate corporal punishment with abuse or hostility, but I do question the efficacy of such things. You bringing up your daughter drawing on walls is one thing, like I said previously young children, those not capable of reason, generally have something to gain from corporal punishment. Otherwise I think kaijyuu hits the nail on the head.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

And no, I don't automatically equate corporal punishment with abuse or hostility, but I do question the efficacy of such things. You bringing up your daughter drawing on walls is one thing, like I said previously young children, those not capable of reason, generally have something to gain from corporal punishment. Otherwise I think kaijyuu hits the nail on the head.

I'm saying that physical punishment may make more of an impression on certain people, since, you know, everyone responds differently to different scenarios.

One child gets a punishment in a corner and cries for 15 minutes. Another get the same punishment, spends those 15 minutes thinking of how to get back at the punisher.

[scriver]

I, myself, never got beat by my father even though he had major aggression issues. Why? I never did a single thing to piss him off, followed rules, and was respectful.

Do you honestly think living of fear that your own father would beat you if you did a "mistake" was a good way to grow up?

Also, I am not pro-beating or anything as such, I'm a pacifist myself. I know that children don't always listen to gentle instruction. Just mentioning there's never a one-method answer to any issue, especially behavioral problems.

Because if you don't beat your kids there's obviously only one other thing you can do about it.

Yeah, that's why corporal punishment is so common in child psychology.

I can't argue with the fact that a whole field of science considers beating kids wrong and outdated, so I'll just try to vaguely discredit the field with air quotes instead.

I believe this is what you were actually saying.

sadly, there are quite a few children 'hellbent on being shits' around the world today, it seems to be caused by pampering from the parents who fold to every whine, but thats just my observation.
it may also be a leading contributor to the number of horrendously inhuman creatures who inhabit most online communities today, when people grow up getting everything they want, they tend to lose many key life lessons.

now if somebody believes this is somehow wrong based on me being a teenager in high school, i stopped being a teenager mentally quite some time ago due to trials in my life, it taught me that going through hard times and not getting what you want everyday makes you a better person, i see many people who get a new Iphone every other month, since they cannot take care of them, and their parents are perfectly happy to shell out hundreds a year for it, in general these people tend to have quite poor social skills (real ones, not the ability to make friends) and consider themselves higher than others.

Not getting beat /= getting anything you want.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I never lived one day in fear of my father, jackass. I knew better, and therefore I was not afraid of any sort of punishment. Being respectful and diligent typically lets you breathe easy, especially as my father was never the type to beat a child or a woman, he just had anger issues. Go act like you know what you're talking about elsewhere. As stated above being personal in this is the last thing to do.

And no, my 'air quotes' was to strengthen the fact that Psychology should never have a single thing to do with physical punishment. Off the mark again, kiddo. Do you even know what you're arguing about in that post?

[bombzero]

Okay, it just seemed like you were jumping to conclusions about the quality of my childhood from a couple offhand remarks without knowing the frequency at which they occurred, what ages they occurred at, the prevalence of such things among the culture I grew up in, and the actual severity of the punishments. I was not abused as a child. Spankings were infrequent and whoopings even moreso because I was generally well-behaved. Furthermore my mom is kind of a sissy so I rarely experienced actual pain.

And no, I don't automatically equate corporal punishment with abuse or hostility, but I do question the efficacy of such things. You bringing up your daughter drawing on walls is one thing, like I said previously young children, those not capable of reason, generally have something to gain from corporal punishment. Otherwise I think kaijyuu hits the nail on the head.

wouldn't it be nice if it were possible to include a shit ton of information in every sentence, without writing actual words? lol.



anyways, what kaijyuu said about unruly children is pretty sensible, if they already have it in their head that they get what they want all the time, or that what they were doing was absolutely 100% right despite not being so, there are few other options due to the fact that children can be pretty damned stubborn.

then theres the concept of what is 'acceptable' for physical punishment. beating is an obvious no, spanking/whipping seems to lie in a morally grey area, but i think its fine for severe cases.
however the concepts of 'grounding' and such are actually pretty ineffective in my personal experience, due to the fact that taking something away simply inspires ire.

I'm saying that physical punishment may make more of an impression on certain people, since, you know, everyone responds differently to different scenarios.

One child gets a punishment in a corner and cries for 15 minutes. Another get the same punishment, spends those 15 minutes thinking of how to get back at the punisher.

this is a rather good point, however fear-based punishment should probably be a last resort for use with unruly children, many parents use it first, causing anger and confusion in children.

on an unrelated note, many people seem to actually hold the belied that not wanting to beat/spank children is bad for the child, this is going by what i have seen/heard other people say about the topic in various places, someone actually called me a pansy because i thought that physical punishment should not be used first and exclusively.

they also said i probably thought contact sports should be taken out of school, and that i thought everybody should get a trophy in kids sports.
they were wrong on both accounts, i think these things like this promote the sort of attitude you see in many of the 'problem' children today.

sadly, there are quite a few children 'hellbent on being shits' around the world today, it seems to be caused by pampering from the parents who fold to every whine, but thats just my observation.
it may also be a leading contributor to the number of horrendously inhuman creatures who inhabit most online communities today, when people grow up getting everything they want, they tend to lose many key life lessons.

now if somebody believes this is somehow wrong based on me being a teenager in high school, i stopped being a teenager mentally quite some time ago due to trials in my life, it taught me that going through hard times and not getting what you want everyday makes you a better person, i see many people who get a new Iphone every other month, since they cannot take care of them, and their parents are perfectly happy to shell out hundreds a year for it, in general these people tend to have quite poor social skills (real ones, not the ability to make friends) and consider themselves higher than others.

Not getting beat /= getting anything you want.

you seem to not have understood, there is in fact quite a difference, im talking about parents who buy everything their child wants, even at their own expense, and does not punish the child in any way for doing something wrong.

correct me if im wrong, but your last statement seems to imply you think the only way to make a point is to beat a child, however i grew up perfectly fine, i simply understand what i should and should not be doing.

im also not saying not punishing someone is the way to go, im saying that simply punishing someone alone will not change how they act. you must explain why they shouldn't do something if or when you punish them.
so you really seemed to have somehow assumed that i meant children should never be punished for anything and given everything.

(seriously people, stop posting while im writing something! lol.)

[scriver]

I never lived one day in fear of my father, jackass. I knew better, and therefore I was not afraid of any sort of punishment. Being respecful and diligent isn't that uncommon in good children. Go act like you know what you're talking about elsewhere. As stated above being personal in this is the last thing to do.

I'm sorry if it offends you, but I believe you were. It doesn't matter though, because regardless of your feelings, kids who get beat do live in fear of their parents. And the question remains, to you think that is a good way to grow up? That it makes for a good relationship?

And no, my 'air quotes' was to strengthen the fact that Psychology should never have a single thing to do with physical punishment. Off the mark again, kiddo. Do you even know what you're arguing about in that post?

Psychology has everything to to with physical punishment. What, do you really think beating your kid doesn't influence their psyche? Every experience we have shapes our psyche and selves.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Honestly, Scriver, you're so amusing with your questions that it's near the point of trolling.