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[Antsan]

Do these migrants forget the fact that their countries are shit due to their own cultural and religious practises? As they do the same things over there once the go to Europe .

Assuming that the ones fleeing are the ones who are responsible for what's happening.

I'm not even sure if those migrants are truly useful as anything apart from menial labour due to a lack of a proper western education and their own cultural beliefs.

That's unfounded. Many immigrants are actually quite educated.

regarding how they tend to be rather hostile to western ideals of  freedom of speech and religious freedom.at the same time they flood Europe .even If they are educated here they don't quite respect laws,social customs and what is expected of a modern person in a modern democracy.example of what I just said:the barbaric losers that while living in Europe are joining/joined isis or such groups.

If my memory serves me right, the chumps joining ISIS aren't actually immigrants in the countries they come from.
Also my experience with immigrants was that they actually respect the laws more and are very conscious that they have to behave.
Their children, on the other hand, may be a problem when they grow up, which isn't really a surprise when they see their parents' openness and willingness to integrate rewarded with indifference or even hostility.

I wish I wasn't as hostile/racists but after this crap you reach a limit.I literally just heard a machine gun from the other side of a rather large river near my house.not even the cops are armed with assault rifles and yet we hear them almost everyday .it leaves you not traumatized,but indifferent.

Indifference to a threat to your life speaks of trauma.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm somewhat worried about how most of the people here will react to what I'm.about to say about this asylum seekers mess.
I'm a lurker so I never post by the way.
Is it really too hard on the modern European mindset to let this people stay on their homelands?

Yes, not politically feasible

Do these migrants forget the fact that their countries are shit due to their own cultural and religious practises?

Some of them are fleeing those, and there does seem to be a generation gap. Muslim, Hindu, Christian, they immigrated to Britain just fine and integrated for decades and then everything went to shits with labour and mass immigration. They knew what they were doing as well, so maybe Tony just wanted more blood for the blood god.

As they do the same things over there once the go to Europe .

Yeah I don't get that either.

I'm not even sure if those migrants are truly useful as anything apart from menial labour due to a lack of a proper western education and their own cultural beliefs.regarding how they tend to be rather hostile to western ideals of  freedom of speech and religious freedom.at the same time they flood Europe .even If they are educated here they don't quite respect laws,social customs and what is expected of a modern person in a modern democracy.example of what I just said:the barbaric losers that while living in Europe are joining/joined isis or such groups.

Well this is a great big issue what with the rise of shariah courts in Britain, infiltrated education system and organized crime and extremism; they aren't economically useful but you don't let them into your country expecting to get anything out of them, you let them into your country out of altruism. I am of course referring to refugees and not migrants, as I am completely in favour of adding checks to migration to prioritize young students, family or skilled workers.

Maybe I will be classified as some kind of evil racist prick here but il leave my ramblings here.
But as sjws Say one must tolerate all people. (Not if they are white males).
Typing on a cellphone is a fucking torture.

Kek, you do get desensitized after a while.

I'm not entirely convinced that it will do what they say it's meant for.
So it'll help commuters from further north (but not really even all that far north) get to London, so that they can work in London and spend money in London. Then somehow that's supposed to make the wealth actually be at the north end of the line.
Plus there's plenty of rail infrastructure in the North that could really do with improving, but instead the govt is choosing to go with a huge project that has a big benefit for London.

Ultimately whatever railway happens in the North has to eventually link with London, but I have heard one suggestion to start building it in the North first and connect it to London second to solve this.

That's unfounded. Many immigrants are actually quite educated.

If they're coming from Greece, France, Russia or China maybe. Otherwise the majority are unskilled labour who are just used by employees to maximize profit.

If my memory serves me right, the chumps joining ISIS aren't actually immigrants in the countries they come from.

It's a mixed bag from a diverse range of people. The the "radical clerics" and preachers are coming from abroad, and though they sound fun they're just glorified recruiters. They're much more dangerous than any fighter. Pen > Sword

Also my experience with immigrants was that they actually respect the laws more and are very conscious that they have to behave.

Depends on which group of people from where and what time period. Majority of the violent and sexual crimes in my area are committed by Afro-carribeans, everyone in my area has been mugged/had an attempted burglary at least once, three months ago a south-asian man was stalking the women in my neighbourhood, the police are still looking for him. Also ignores the shariah courts where they're following a different set of laws from a different court, and the rise in attacks on gays on our streets in east london by strict muslim lads. The Peckham and Bermondsey boys have more or less disappeared at least.

Their children, on the other hand, may be a problem when they grow up, which isn't really a surprise when they see their parents' openness and willingness to integrate rewarded with indifference or even hostility.

This is not what happens at all, they are hooking up with Bagdhadi because they see Western society as degenerate and weak and they above it, strong and moral. I always find there something morbidly hilarious the sheer amount of westerners who bend over backwards to portray islamic extremists as poor victims, it makes it even funnier when a tolerant, humanist, secular middle-class single mother finds her son raised on the same morals converting to fundamentalist Sunni Islam

Indifference to a threat to your life speaks of trauma.

You can't be scared and anxious every day of the week, you just learn to live with it and enjoy yourself. Let Rome burn and play your fiddle, enjoy some kebab and piratha and move on with your life, I know I'm content

[scriver]

It's not about portraying them as victims, it's about basic human psychology and identity building - ie, people find a group to identify with, a sense of belonging and togetherhood (and also importantly a sense of purpose and direction) in the Islamist groups/philosophy; something they don't feel they are getting from normal society. It's pretty much why western nations should do ghettofication of communities.

[Loud Whispers]

It's not about portraying them as victims, it's about basic human psychology and identity building - ie, people find a group to identify with, a sense of belonging and togetherhood (and also importantly a sense of purpose and direction) in the Islamist groups/philosophy; something they don't feel they are getting from normal society. It's pretty much why western nations should do ghettofication of communities.

I like talking to them and imagine them often and they're good company; imagine your concerned chavvy English lad talking about the decay of Western society only Arab. Same level of politeness to boot. No one cares about identity politics except libdem students and I don't see what ghettofication would achieve as they're already the overwhelming majority in their regions
I'm doubtful when Cheeky Choudary says Rigby's burning in hell or Kondal taught his school children that Jews were devils and the English slags and poofs it was because they weren't given enough group hugs by "normal society." I think there's no more poetically appropriate example than in Global Aid raising money for the poor publicly whilst offering advice on how to get to Syria privately, playing progressives like a violin with talks about helping the unprivileged whilst expanding their ideology. It is about taking all personal responsibility away from them and making them victims. It's like that hilarious dribble earlier when people were defending the poor "self-radicalized" fundamentalists. Self-radicalized! Hahahahaha! It's farcical :D
Identity is an element, that is unquestionable, that I agree with you on. It's just not the principle driver as there are no shortage of Islamists with strong British identities and also no shortage of converts who were clearly a part of humanist communities, Christian communities or even Muslim communities moderate and Shia with purpose and direction, taking up fundamentalist Sunni Islam. Everyone has their reasons, some are indoctrinated, some wish to join the strongest ideology, some wish to rebel against their parents or wish to reject modern decadent society. Oh, also forgot those with political ambitions and motivations and religions ambitions and motivations. It's a matter of curiosity but I'm more concerned with hardline Islam gaining power as opposed to why people choose it in particular, as deluded progressives vehemently deny any such attempts being made in the west whilst we literally have human rights activists and lawyers even fleeing to Britain from what was once considered moderate nations like Malaysia, where Islam has steadily begun growing more forceful in governing the nation, shariah replaces civil, Muslims lose freedom of belief and non-Muslims become potential enemies of Islam. From Birmingham to Istanbul and Kuala Lumpur, islamisization is being pushed forwards, religion and politics growing indistinguishable, humanism and secularism failing under progressive leadership.
Tbh I care less and less about this

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

We all make our beds and lie in them

[Antsan]

Indifference to a threat to your life speaks of trauma.

You can't be scared and anxious every day of the week, you just learn to live with it and enjoy yourself.

Yeah, trauma.

It's not about portraying them as victims, it's about basic human psychology and identity building - ie, people find a group to identify with, a sense of belonging and togetherhood (and also importantly a sense of purpose and direction) in the Islamist groups/philosophy; something they don't feel they are getting from normal society. It's pretty much why western nations should do ghettofication of communities.

It's interesting how the only people ever using the word "victim" in this context are the people who accuse people like us of "portraying someone as a victim".

Also then going on to speak of how people should be responsible for themselves while ignoring that you yourself are constantly complaining about how those damn immigrants don't integrate right into western society without attempting anything to fix the issues we have with usable integration…
Yeah, that seems par for the course.

"I hate homeless people but I don't want to do anything against the high probability of us having homeless people."
"I want immigrants to be integrated but offering them a place in society freely instead of shutting them off somewhere far away is out of the question."

[Truean]

Excuse me a moment please, but I would like to bring up something:

http://news.yahoo.com/reckoning-nears-clerk-resisting-same-sex-marriage-ruling-202230268.html

I have no idea where to begin on the mess this is. So many issues and such complex stuff that it's just ... wow.

This woman has decided that she can personally disobey the Supreme Court of the United States and override years, nay, decades, of hard fought battles. She does this entirely because she believes it to be wrong, religiously or otherwise. Somehow, there are a lot of people supporting her "religious convictions," and they might gain traction in continuing to pass "religious liberty" laws, which would only benefit them (as opposed to say, any other religion).

How is this a thing?

Can you imagine this happening in any other country today? One person just steadfastly refusing to listen to the government, despite being given decades of chances to be heard, being heard, and failing. No other government would even consider tolerating this kind of thing on any issue. She's an elected official just refusing to do what she swore she would and she's just so genuinely astonished that everyone isn't doing what she wants. This is part of a larger trend where certain people have gotten everything they want, entirely due to their faith for so long, that the idea of not getting whatever they want, is somehow "discrimination."

I'm not going to rant about gay rights anymore, because I've done that before, in depth.
Simply, people are demanding the law adopt their faith and religious beliefs, when those infringe upon the rights of others (while denying this fact). Marriage, even if it is a religious thing, isn't unique to one religion, and there are many definitions across cultures, regions, and faiths. There are religions that have no problem with two gay people getting married.

Some religions ban alcohol; prohibition was tried and failed.
Some religions ban shellfish and pork, so should we ban that?
Some religions ban cow harm, so should we outlaw steak (Sacred Cows)?
Some religions ban beard trimming, so should we outlaw barbers and shaving?

The real question is who defines legally recognized marriages and the answer is the government, not one particular church, because whenever people are asked, "whose religion should be put into law?" they all raise their hands to say "mine" and it's impossible to make all the different religious beliefs ... law.... They conflict.

So now, despite this, it is very possible this woman will be held up as a martyr. She may galvanize the opposition to gay marriage into passing the equivalent of gay jim crow (moreso than there already is). Simply enforcing the law could lead to changing it, in a terrible way.

NOTE:

As of this time, I'm honestly quite overwhelmed with several things and I'm not sure I'll be able to respond to discussions on this post. I apologize for this. Black doctors and nurses have to treat KKK members in emergency rooms. Jewish Lawyers have had to defend Neo Nazis. Their objections were ignored. I just don't get it and I'm hurt by it. It is disheartening to know that you can go through the entire legal process to change the law for your rights, and have somebody just ... not care. And then, then, there's the fact that even if SHE has a personal issue with it, couldn't she at LEAST find somebody else who would be ok with it? I mean is there nobody else in the whole place who could substitute in for her on those cases? She won't even allow that.

[UXLZ]

I will say this simply, Truean. Humanity is diseased, and no cure exists.

[Frumple]

Rather doubt we'll see substantial new religious liberty laws passed... we've already got them, and they're more than enough, despite what some assholes claim. She can be taken as a martyr all the nitwits want, but they don't really have any legal traction, they don't have the theological traction -- the lady's job was not to consecrate a marriage before god, and conflating secular paperwork with sacred ritual is frankly blasphemous -- and they don't have the numbers to really do anything about it, so... whatever, really. Some people are delusional, sometimes even in notable numbers. They've got no room to push, and less to maneuver. We knock them down in court, as we have been, and continue to do so until demographics deals with the issue.

As for the clerk, it'll be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I'd imagine voluntary resigning, m'self, in an attempt to skirt the incoming legal cases. Kinda' hope she gets hit with the legal penalties, though, preferably at least parole. Needs to be a message that when it comes to work like she was doing, if you take the job, you do the job, and if you can't, you quit. Before it becomes a problem.

[Arcvasti]

Looking at the article, I don't see anything terribly depressing. The Supreme Court ruled against the clerk, there's a widespread objection to their refusal to issue the marriage licenses from most everyone who isn't bloody stupid and preliminary internet investigation indicates a majority of people in the U.S. support gay rights. The kind of people who would rally to the cause of this clerk are probably ALREADY against gay rights.

I will say this simply, Truean. Humanity is diseased, and no cure exists.

I'd say that's inaccurate. The disease in question is ignorance and xenophobia and the cure is knowledge and tolerance. Thing is, like with actual diseases, vaccinating everybody while they're young doesn't always work and there will always be outlier cases where the disease takes hold, while still having a clear majority of healthy people. And vaccinating someone when they already have the disease doesn't do anything, so you just have to ignore them and wait for them to die and for their descendents to be properly medically treated.

[UXLZ]

That's not what I'm talking about, Arc. It's more than that. Xenophobia and ignorance are the symptoms, not the cause.

[Rolan7]

Looking at the article, I don't see anything terribly depressing. The Supreme Court ruled against the clerk, there's a widespread objection to their refusal to issue the marriage licenses from most everyone who isn't bloody stupid and preliminary internet investigation indicates a majority of people in the U.S. support gay rights. The kind of people who would rally to the cause of this clerk are probably ALREADY against gay rights.

It's probably that this asshole (and by proxy the handful of other clerks who defied the Supreme Court) won another round in the Supreme Court.  That's a huge deal, and a massive waste of resources, for what amounts to "But I'm religious!"

The Supreme Court finally decided, and these people demanded a retrial.  AND GOT IT.  Over something that literally hurts nobody.  It's just confirmation of the extreme Christian privilege in America, frankly.  Both perceived and actual.  The most devout Muslim would never have got this.  (Even if they had a case of ACTUAL religious persecution, instead of this BS)

Homosexuality is a "sin" equivalent to eating shellfish in Christianity, these people are just deluded bigots.

[UXLZ]

Religion is far, far too often used as an excuse to meddle or do things that it has no right being involved with or allowing its fanatics to do. It's too sensitive of a topic, too many people can't handle their religion being questioned.

[Bauglir]

Religion is far, far too often used as an excuse to meddle or do things that it has no right being involved with or allowing its fanatics to do. It's too sensitive of a topic, too many people can't handle their religion being questioned.

For what it's worth, the abuse of religion is just as much a symptom as xenophobia and ignorance. The roots are deeper than ideology. People don't like having their beliefs questions because they don't like having their identities questions. People want a world that affirms that their self-perceptions are good and reasonable and fair. The bigot protesting the acceptance of gay marriage feels the same sort of sense of oppression as the transgender person degraded for knowing who they are. The difference is that in the first group has to hurt people to get their vindication. The second just needs the world to stop hurting them. But the root cause is often the same - "The world needs to accept that my reality is Right." That one thought makes one person a relentless asshole, and another a victim. One of the reasons I say context is everything - whether conviction is a virtue depends on what you believe in, and people like this clerk believe in things that are not really okay (and, in case it needs saying, transgender folk absolutely are right about their gender, and I also don't mean to say anything about the degree to which people feel or actually are oppressed).

That's not the only problem, of course. I'm not quite silly enough to think all human suffering comes down to any one universal flaw, or that I'm immune to any of them, but... that, I think is the relevant one.

[UXLZ]

Truthfully speaking, the issue as I see it is not so much with the existence of religion is and of itself (a higher power existing isn't too absurd for my taste to consider possible; I am agnostic after all) but with the notion of "Faith" that many espouse as the greatest of virtues. It honestly infuriates me, people's unwillingness to admit they are wrong, or to see things in a light other than their own. It's hard - I know that because it's hard, even for me, and I fail constantly - but if people were able to consider something outside of their own spectrum then a lot of these issues would be far more minor. At least, if they thought in a manner even bearing the facsimile of rationality. 

That is, to a great extent, the disease that humanity is inflicted with. It does not exist in one reality, but 7.125 billion separate bubbles. There is no cure for it, because if it is cured then things will no longer be even recognizable for what they once were.

[Arcvasti]

That is, to a great extent, the disease that humanity is inflicted with. It does not exist in one reality, but 7.125 billion separate bubbles. There is no cure for it, because if it is cured then things will no longer be even recognizable for what they once were.

I'd still say this is in large parts caused by ignorance. If people were more educated about things, then all 7ish billion bubbles would bear a larger resemblance to the real world and have less disharmony in general.

EDIT: I'm not implying there's a single universal ethical code that we need to find and teach to everybody, but weeding out the sillier things like xenophobia and such via making the unknown and unfamiliar known and familiar would go a long way towards making things better. Hell, this is something which has happened and is still happening.

Looking at the article, I don't see anything terribly depressing. The Supreme Court ruled against the clerk, there's a widespread objection to their refusal to issue the marriage licenses from most everyone who isn't bloody stupid and preliminary internet investigation indicates a majority of people in the U.S. support gay rights. The kind of people who would rally to the cause of this clerk are probably ALREADY against gay rights.

It's probably that this asshole (and by proxy the handful of other clerks who defied the Supreme Court) won another round in the Supreme Court.  That's a huge deal, and a massive waste of resources, for what amounts to "But I'm religious!"

The Supreme Court finally decided, and these people demanded a retrial.  AND GOT IT.  Over something that literally hurts nobody.  It's just confirmation of the extreme Christian privilege in America, frankly.  Both perceived and actual.  The most devout Muslim would never have got this.  (Even if they had a case of ACTUAL religious persecution, instead of this BS)

'

Yeah, I guess you're right. I'm not entirely sure how people can't grasp the basic "Your rights can't be used to they infringe on other's rights" thing, but whatever.