Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Still, it's easy to not get pregnant. You have to make some choices at some point to lead up to you being pregnant, vast majority of the time.

It's true that you could just choose to have gay sex.  That is a really good birth control method.

You believe homosexuality will save you from the babies? Now, perhaps. But not forever.

soon

[Descan]

I'm all for it as a birth-control method. It's my go-to, er... device.

[Angle]

It is freezing outside and the homeless are dying.  I have a house.  I am not required to let the homeless in and save their lives.

I have two kidneys and an innocent is dying for lack of a kidney.  I can survive with one kidney.  I am not required to give that kidney.

But get pregnant just once, and your body belongs to someone else. 

Yeah, slip on the wheel just once and you're dead. Forget to unload a gun and you're dead. Slip with a knife? Dead. That's why you take steps to not do those things. Just like you take steps to not get pregnant. You created life whether you like it or not. You have no right to remove it because you were an idiot and didn't take steps. There ain't no rewind on life, so don't ask for one. Of course, in the case of rape that's fair. ( Perhaps encouraging for rapists considering there will be no baby at the end) However, if you were an idiot, adoption. You don't have a baby, there's no life lost, everybody wins.

Interestingly enough, as a society we put a great deal of effort into seeing to it that there is a way out of most of those- It's called 911 emergency response teams and medical aid. Not always effective, no, but still something we strive for. That is of course, irrelevant to the question of whether there should be a way out- I personally think so, seeing as I don't like dying for stupid things, but maybe you feel differently.  On the topic of abortion, I have to agree with vector- even if you did fuck up, you still have no obligation. I wouldn't personally feel comfortable with the choice, but then I'm a man, so I don't have to make it.

Edit- Personally, I think we could cast this discussion in entirely different light if we consider a particular piece of speculative fiction- The ability to shift the fetus off on the man and have him carry it to term. If you found yourself one half of a particular irresponsible union, would you volunteer your body when the women didn't want to deal with it?

[DWC]

I'm all for abortions, but I think it's massively irresponsible to get pregnant unintentionally anyways.

Condoms break.

Condoms break, IUD's run out of steam or just fall out, hormonal pills are nullified by unforeseeable body chemistry/medicine, vasectomies and tubal ligations inexplicably reverse themselves...

We humans are the product of many millions of years of evolution, the primary decider of which is whom makes babies and whom does not make babies. We are the end result of 100% of the side that made babies and 0% of the side that did not. Overcoming that, now that the situation has quickly (in an evolutionary context) changed to one in which babies are not usually desirable, is very difficult. Even with all of our science, it took many years for us to get contraception it as good as it is, which still often fails.

It does not help that the very same evolution results in most of us having our Id frequently telling us "Do it. Do it. Do it. Come on, do it. Just do it. Don't listen to them, do it. Nothing bad is going to happen, do it." from pubescence onwards.

This may be true, but people are not animals. We tend to act rationally, yes, even the majority of people, this teeming dumb mass of backwards baby-having people like our parents. They just put off kids until they can really deal with it. That's being responsible.

Irresponsible people get pregnant before they are able to handle it. That's expected, nobody is perfect, human condition, whatever. That's why there is abortion. It's still irresponsible, the blame mostly laying with the person that is pregnant. They are the ones with the most at stake, the most to lose, with an errant or ill-advised encounter or another, they should be the ones most wary of it's consequences and take precautions to protect themselves.

People's urges compel them to do all sorts of maladaptive things in society. It's irresponsible to succumb to them, just like it's manslaughter to fall asleep behind the wheel and hit somebody, or drive drunk, or get drunk and go duck hunting. Negligent. Society really expects better from people.

Basically, what I mean is that I wholly support abortion, but I reserve the right to tsk-tsk people who resort to abortions. Also, abortions are not pleasant, I think that is "punishment" enough as it is. It's not some light-hearted, frivolous decision, at least not the second time around.

About homosexuality? I think it's like any other sexual fetish. Maybe keep that in your bedroom. A person's sexual preferences should not dominate their cultural or political outlook. It shouldn't be anything special in law. Yeah, no kids, but heteros need not have kids either.

[SalmonGod]

I've never really understood people's selective obsessions with personal responsibility.  Everybody has strengths and weaknesses, and they can all be construed as various types of personal responsibility.  Yet there are certain types, especially as relates to sex or money, where if you're bad at managing them, you're automatically regarded as a bad person in general who deserves whatever happens to you.  Is it not possible for someone to be really susceptible to peer pressure, for example, but of an exemplary nature in most other respects? 

Nope.  Peer pressured into sex and got pregnant = deserves life ruined and a child who is incredibly likely to grow up as a miserable drag on society as well just for good measure.  You and your friends and family can just take all the suffering because fuck you for slipping up.

Bad at managing money?  Fuck you too.  There's no possible way you could be a good person who contributes to society and deserves a decent life if you're bad at managing money.

Pisses me off.

[kingfisher1112]

Vector, quite frankly you so far hae just been horrible. I'm leaving. There, mission accomplished. I'll run on back to my mother's basement to be even more misogynistic. No privilige checking for me.

[Angle]

It's still irresponsible, the blame mostly laying with the person that is pregnant. They are the ones with the most at stake, the most to lose, with an errant or ill-advised encounter or another, they should be the ones most wary of it's consequences and take precautions to protect themselves.

BUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLSHIIIIIIIIT!

The man involved is absolutely equally responsible! If he failed to ensure that precautions were taken, he should absolutely suffer an equal measure of the consequences!

When you're getting involved with another person like that, you have an obligation to look out for their welfare. If you fail to do that and they suffer for it, you are absolutely responsible. This goes both ways, note- If you're a women and give your partner an STI because you were sloppy about your checkups, then you had better make up for it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

This may be true, but people are not animals. We tend to act rationally, yes, even the majority of people, this teeming dumb mass of backwards baby-having people like our parents. They just put off kids until they can really deal with it. That's being responsible.

Irresponsible people get pregnant before they are able to handle it. That's expected, nobody is perfect, human condition, whatever. That's why there is abortion. It's still irresponsible, the blame mostly laying with the person that is pregnant. They are the ones with the most at stake, the most to lose, with an errant or ill-advised encounter or another, they should be the ones most wary of it's consequences and take precautions to protect themselves.

People's urges compel them to do all sorts of maladaptive things in society. It's irresponsible to succumb to them, just like it's manslaughter to fall asleep behind the wheel and hit somebody, or drive drunk, or get drunk and go duck hunting. Negligent. Society really expects better from people.

Basically, what I mean is that I wholly support abortion, but I reserve the right to tsk-tsk people who resort to abortions. Also, abortions are not pleasant, I think that is "punishment" enough as it is. It's not some light-hearted, frivolous decision, at least not the second time around.

I believe you will find that the point which I was making is that only the force of the rational mind holds in check our desire to constantly [procreate], the reason for this being that any significant deviation from this model will not lead to successor generations. And that even allowing for this does not eliminate the problem, as our biology has ways of constantly subverting our methods of contraception.

And this is not a non-issue, especially since many of us are not even taught to place the rational mind's verdict first. The psychological pressure of not [attempting procreation] on a regular basis should not be so easily dismissed. You are asking only a section of a person's mind to hold back everything else. Faltering is not to be unexpected. You cannot really label it maladaptive either. It is, in fact, the exact opposite of maladaptive because the fate of our species technically rests upon it. That the functional reality has changed is something you can not simply convince your lizard brain of. Lizard brain will never stop. Lizard brain thinks you're trying to drive humanity to extinction. What the fuck are you doing, says lizard brain, when you pass up seemingly perfect opportunities for [attempting procreation].

About homosexuality? I think it's like any other sexual fetish. Maybe keep that in your bedroom. A person's sexual preferences should not dominate their cultural or political outlook. It shouldn't be anything special in law. Yeah, no kids, but heteros need not have kids either.

Homosexuality does not fit into the category of being a sexual fetish. A sexual fetish is a more narrow thing than the desire to [attempt procreation] on one sex, or another, or both. If one accepts the definition as being that wide, it makes heterosexuality a fetish as well, which I think we can agree is plainly silly. It thus follows that homosexuality is not a fetish either.

It probably wouldn't dominate so many people's outlooks if not for the fact that some parts of society seem unable to let the issue go and allow for equality, and will in fact bring up how unwilling they are to let it go constantly in the political arena.

[Vector]

Vector, quite frankly you so far hae just been horrible. I'm leaving. There, mission accomplished. I'll run on back to my mother's basement to be even more misogynistic. No privilige checking for me.

Yup, I'm a mean and horrible person.  Have a good time with your mom.

[Solifuge]

Here's the thing.  If you break your arm, even doing something really stupid and risky, we don't just say "hey, you're stupid."  We do what's best for you and set your arm.  And if you have two children while being unable to support a third because economic downturn, we don't make you carry that child to term.  It's not like there's no cost to being pregnant and giving birth.  There's a huge cost to it, physical, mental, financial.  And it's not like there's no cost to being put up for adoption.  There's a big cost to it.  We can eliminate all those costs simultaneously, or we can say "Hey, you were stupid.  I'm just going to make a whole bunch of people suffer because why not."

This.

No one would dream of telling a skin cancer patient "Sorry, you spent too much time in the sun without sunscreen. That was stupid, so now we're just not going to treat you. You'll just have to deal with it." Why then does whether a man or woman made poor decisions about contraception (or the lack thereof) even factor into the abortion equation? It is not the place of law or medical personnel to punish pregnancy... not to mention that being forced to carry and give birth to a baby as "punishment" is twisted, dangerous, and inhumane.

The duty of doctors (and the medical industry as a whole) is to mitigate human suffering, and promote bodily wellness. We should really stop getting in the way of that duty.

[DWC]

It's still irresponsible, the blame mostly laying with the person that is pregnant. They are the ones with the most at stake, the most to lose, with an errant or ill-advised encounter or another, they should be the ones most wary of it's consequences and take precautions to protect themselves.

BUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLSHIIIIIIIIT!

The man involved is absolutely equally responsible! If he failed to ensure that precautions were taken, he should absolutely suffer an equal measure of the consequences!

When you're getting involved with another person like that, you have an obligation to look out for their welfare. If you fail to do that and they suffer for it, you are absolutely responsible. This goes both ways, note- If you're a women and give your partner an STI because you were sloppy about your checkups, then you had better make up for it.

Well yeah that's sorta true. But the guy doesn't get pregnant. He gets, alimony? Child support? More obligations that really fall on deaf ears for an irresponsible person. They'll try to duck and dodge that too. His consequences are not quite at there with the lady's.

This may be true, but people are not animals. We tend to act rationally, yes, even the majority of people, this teeming dumb mass of backwards baby-having people like our parents. They just put off kids until they can really deal with it. That's being responsible.

Irresponsible people get pregnant before they are able to handle it. That's expected, nobody is perfect, human condition, whatever. That's why there is abortion. It's still irresponsible, the blame mostly laying with the person that is pregnant. They are the ones with the most at stake, the most to lose, with an errant or ill-advised encounter or another, they should be the ones most wary of it's consequences and take precautions to protect themselves.

People's urges compel them to do all sorts of maladaptive things in society. It's irresponsible to succumb to them, just like it's manslaughter to fall asleep behind the wheel and hit somebody, or drive drunk, or get drunk and go duck hunting. Negligent. Society really expects better from people.

Basically, what I mean is that I wholly support abortion, but I reserve the right to tsk-tsk people who resort to abortions. Also, abortions are not pleasant, I think that is "punishment" enough as it is. It's not some light-hearted, frivolous decision, at least not the second time around.

I believe you will find that the point which I was making is that only the force of the rational mind holds in check our desire to constantly [procreate], the reason for this being that any significant deviation from this model will not lead to successor generations. And that even allowing for this does not eliminate the problem, as our biology has ways of constantly subverting our methods of contraception.

And this is not a non-issue, especially since many of us are not even taught to place the rational mind's verdict first. The psychological pressure of not [attempting procreation] on a regular basis should not be so easily dismissed. You are asking only a section of a person's mind to hold back everything else. Faltering is not to be unexpected. You cannot really label it maladaptive either. It is, in fact, the exact opposite of maladaptive because the fate of our species technically rests upon it. That the functional reality has changed is something you can not simply convince your lizard brain of. Lizard brain will never stop. Lizard brain thinks you're trying to drive humanity to extinction. What the fuck are you doing, says lizard brain, when you pass up seemingly perfect opportunities for [attempting procreation].

About homosexuality? I think it's like any other sexual fetish. Maybe keep that in your bedroom. A person's sexual preferences should not dominate their cultural or political outlook. It shouldn't be anything special in law. Yeah, no kids, but heteros need not have kids either.

Homosexuality does not fit into the category of being a sexual fetish. A sexual fetish is a more narrow thing than the desire to [attempt procreation] on one sex, or another, or both. If one accepts the definition as being that wide, it makes heterosexuality a fetish as well, which I think we can agree is plainly silly. It thus follows that homosexuality is not a fetish either.

It probably wouldn't dominate so many people's outlooks if not for the fact that some parts of society seem unable to let the issue go and allow for equality, and will in fact bring up how unwilling they are to let it go constantly in the political arena.

Sexual fetish, I say because it's a sexual preference in the minority. Not many people are really into that stuff, no offense intended. Why 'straight' and 'gay' should be 'equal' concepts doesn't make perfect sense. The concept of marriage as a government ensured legal status makes even less sense. What 'equal rights' are at stake here? I personally think 'marriage' should be left out of the government's hand. You have a good friend, should you say someday "Hey, we are best friends, let's go to the courthouse and get the government to recognize us officially as 'best pals 4ever'.

If you want equality, single people and married people would be the same. The government treats single people and married people like 1st and second class citizens. Why do legally married people get paid more in the army or tax cuts, these other benefits, when single people get the full brunt? Why should these sorts of arrangements like marriage provides, be strictly for unrelated married couples? Why can't a brother and sister sharing an apartment share bank accounts, living arrangements, tax-cuts, ambulance rides, whatever?

Seems to me, these legally binding parts of marriage should be able to be done between any people. Not just two straight people, two gay people. Or benefits between married and single people should really end entirely.

"husband' and 'wife' would be legally weightless terms like 'friend' and 'brother from another mother'. No special treatment or government benefits for either.

But that's off topic, I guess.

[Max White]

Yeah, slip on the wheel just once and you're dead. Forget to unload a gun and you're dead. Slip with a knife? Dead. That's why you take steps to not do those things. Just like you take steps to not get pregnant. You created life whether you like it or not. You have no right to remove it because you were an idiot and didn't take steps. There ain't no rewind on life, so don't ask for one. Of course, in the case of rape that's fair. ( Perhaps encouraging for rapists considering there will be no baby at the end) However, if you were an idiot, adoption. You don't have a baby, there's no life lost, everybody wins.

Except that is wrong.
If somebody crashes their car or cuts them self or what have you we don't just say "Well too bad! You should have been more careful!" instead we do everything feasible to protect their quality of life. There is a rewind on life, somewhat. We can undo most damage in most cases. We don't call people who make mistakes idiots who deserve what they get, we call them people who may or may not need assistance depending on the circumstance.
Should we take precautions to prevent accidents? Certainly! And we do! That is why other forms of contraceptive should always be made available, but just because you didn't put on the safety doesn't mean you deserve to get shot and bleed out, and just because the condom broke doesn't mean you forfeit the right to your own body.

Every day we create and destroy life. We grow cattle and kill them for meat, and they have significantly more developed thoughts and feelings than a fetus, yet we have no problem with that. If you want to argue that cattle are too genetically diverse from humans then take cancerous cells for example, often genetically identical DNA, just different functions active that cause it to be harmful. Cutting these out is destroying genetically human life, yet we have no problem with that. If you want to argue for the potential for a human then I have very sad news for you, the majority of teenage males would be guilty of genocide under that pretense, yet with the exception of religious authoritarians who think they can dictate the human condition, we have no problem with that.

[SalmonGod]

Vector, quite frankly you so far hae just been horrible. I'm leaving. There, mission accomplished. I'll run on back to my mother's basement to be even more misogynistic. No privilige checking for me.

FYI, while Vector has been very aggressive, you haven't been exactly flattering either.  If I were a woman, I imagine I would be very offended by some of the things you said.  And I can understand getting very worked up about it, because it's probably really fucking scary as a woman to see the government attacking women's rights sporadically across the country.  When you're talking about stuff like that and someone else who doesn't have to worry about those issues comes along and tries to tell you nonchalantly and without being at all informed that it doesn't actually matter or that you even deserve it... yeah, people are going to get upset.

[Bauglir]

Well yeah that's sorta true. But the guy doesn't get pregnant. He gets, alimony? Child support? More obligations that really fall on deaf ears for an irresponsible person. They'll try to duck and dodge that too. His consequences are not quite at there with the lady's.

So, what you're telling me is that responsibility is directly tied to the potential consequences to me, personally. In that case, I'm going to buy a cheap piece of junk car, load it up with metal sheeting and cushioning for myself, and have a blast doing 120 in a school zone. Kids should be watching the street before they cross it, they're the ones who've got the most to lose. Hell, even if this is only part of the reasoning, I'm still apparently less reprehensible than somebody who does the same in a Ferrari, because I've got less to lose.

[Loud Whispers]

No one would dream of telling a skin cancer patient "Sorry, you spent too much time in the sun without sunscreen. That was stupid, so now we're just not going to treat you. You'll just have to deal with it."

During the summer heatwave we had a giant media campaign saying "a tan is skin damage, at least use sun cream you idiots" as people were putting themselves at completely unnecessary risk of skin cancer.

"husband' and 'wife' would be legally weightless terms like 'friend' and 'brother from another mother'. No special treatment or government benefits for either.

But that's off topic, I guess.

You. Stop making sense.

Condoms break, IUD's run out of steam or just fall out, hormonal pills are nullified by unforeseeable body chemistry/medicine, vasectomies and tubal ligations inexplicably reverse themselves...

Stored correctly [i.e. not in a wallet, in the light or hot places], used correctly before expiry date and such condoms will not break.
New high-copper IUDs are 99% effective, but if you don't want to leave it to good chance use a condom.
Hormonal pills are about 95% effective, depending on which is taken and prevent pregnancy in various ways. If you don't want to leave it to good chance or unforeseen circumstances, condoms.
Vasectomies are 99.8% effective, although it can take up to or more than 3 months for some people to definitely be able to have sex without condoms safely as the remaining sperm still has to be cleared. There is also a 1.1% chance on average that after 2 years a vasectomy will fail.
After a year tubal litigations no longer become near-99% effective, probably for the same reason some vasectomies fail as well, as the body tries and can be successful in fully repairing damage done to the body.
Abstinence is as effective as your will, and even then there's a small chance you're going to get impregnated by God. If unsure, wear a condom at all times to avoid immaculate conception.

Here's the thing.  If you break your arm, even doing something really stupid and risky, we don't just say "hey, you're stupid."  We do what's best for you and set your arm.

[If you were injured because of something stupid, doctors make sure you know it was stupid. I know from friends and myself, rather humorously. And painfully].
But of course, even with that in account, as well as with the skin damage issue - you wouldn't be denied treatment, even if it were the second or even third time you were sledding down an icy hill on a runway of plastic bags and dislocated both of your feet. That one wasn't me fortunately.
You take responsibility of your actions and you get treatment in a working world.