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[SalmonGod]

It is freezing outside and the homeless are dying.  I have a house.  I am not required to let the homeless in and save their lives.

I have two kidneys and an innocent is dying for lack of a kidney.  I can survive with one kidney.  I am not required to give that kidney.

But get pregnant just once, and your body belongs to someone else. 

Yeah, slip on the wheel just once and you're dead. Forget to unload a gun and you're dead. Slip with a knife? Dead. That's why you take steps to not do those things. Just like you take steps to not get pregnant. You created life whether you like it or not. You have no right to remove it because you were an idiot and didn't take steps. There ain't no rewind on life, so don't ask for one. Of course, in the case of rape that's fair. ( Perhaps encouraging for rapists considering there will be no baby at the end) However, if you were an idiot, adoption. You don't have a baby, there's no life lost, everybody wins.

Even if we give you all that, there are a lot of other things at stake here.  You're missing the part where pregnancies sometimes go badly and abortions are necessary for medical reasons.  Or the part where 88% of the abortion providing clinics in that state will be shut down, and many of those provided services besides abortions that women need.  This isn't just about abortion.  It is literally an attack on women manifest directly in bodily harm.  This is why women fly into a rage when talking to people like you.

[Descan]

You're a reprehensible fuckhead and I'm not talking to you anymore.  Sorry.

[kingfisher1112]

It is freezing outside and the homeless are dying.  I have a house.  I am not required to let the homeless in and save their lives.

I have two kidneys and an innocent is dying for lack of a kidney.  I can survive with one kidney.  I am not required to give that kidney.

But get pregnant just once, and your body belongs to someone else. 

Yeah, slip on the wheel just once and you're dead. Forget to unload a gun and you're dead. Slip with a knife? Dead. That's why you take steps to not do those things. Just like you take steps to not get pregnant. You created life whether you like it or not. You have no right to remove it because you were an idiot and didn't take steps. There ain't no rewind on life, so don't ask for one. Of course, in the case of rape that's fair. ( Perhaps encouraging for rapists considering there will be no baby at the end) However, if you were an idiot, adoption. You don't have a baby, there's no life lost, everybody wins.

Even if we give you all that, there are a lot of other things at stake here.  You're missing the part where pregnancies sometimes go badly and abortions are necessary for medical reasons.  Or the part where 88% of the abortion providing clinics in that state will be shut down, and many of those provided services besides abortions that women need.

That is true, I will cede you that. If you truly do need it because of a miscarriage/whatever the term is, you need it. Although I am curious, on the nature of the clinics work and what they provide, what do they provide? Are only the dedicated abortion sections being shut down, or the whole clinics? What is the naturee f the work they need.

[DWC]

I'm all for abortions, but I think it's massively irresponsible to get pregnant unintentionally anyways. That said, massively irresponsible people (perhaps at the time) don't need to be raising kids anyways.

Abortions are unpleasant. Everything is scraped out. Think about it. People are not having fun getting pregnant on accident and having abortions. People have abortions as a last resort because they know at least that a kid is the last thing them or the world needs at the time.

I've never thought abortion was that controversial of an issue, if you take religion and some metaphysical philosophies out of the equation, both of which should not influence government policy anyways. The USA is a free country, individual liberty, self ownership and utilitarianism reign in free secular societies.

[kingfisher1112]

You're a reprehensible fuckhead and I'm not talking to you anymore.  Sorry.

Alright Descan, what are you finding so objectionable? I can understand Vector but not you. Why?

[Descan]

You're a reprehensible fuckhead and I'm not talking to you anymore.  Sorry.

Alright Descan, what are you finding so objectionable? I can understand Vector but not you. Why?

Why can you understand Vector?

[kingfisher1112]

You're a reprehensible fuckhead and I'm not talking to you anymore.  Sorry.

Alright Descan, what are you finding so objectionable? I can understand Vector but not you. Why?

Why can you understand Vector?

I've noted her a few times for getting a little angry, posts in the sad thread etc etc. Now answer me.

[Descan]

Not only what you are saying but how you are saying it. Needlessly confrontational, "Oh look at the silly progressives getting into a tizzy, just because I said that women are idiots if they get pregnant, and shouldn't be allowed an abortion-option because they're stupid!"

On a related note, why are women the ones who are idiots deserving punishment for have sex, when men are just as much, if not more, responsible for the act? I don't need to tell you (or maybe I do) that a LOT of teenage boys are (inadvertently or intentionally) pressuring girls into having sex. Girls who would otherwise not do it?

[Willfor]

Kingfisher, when you play devil's advocate, you have a special responsibility to have educated yourself on both sides of the issues before you put your name into the ring. Otherwise you are not actually playing devil's advocate, you are presenting your own opinions on an issue.

[Vector]

Maybe I'm angry because you're actually a reprehensible fuckhead, not because I'm "sensitive" or whatever you're trying to call me right there.

On a related note, why are women the ones who are idiots deserving punishment for have sex, when men are just as much, if not more, responsible for the act? I don't need to tell you (or maybe I do) that a LOT of teenage boys are (inadvertently or intentionally) pressuring girls into having sex. Girls who would otherwise not do it?

Don't be silly.  You blame the woman for not acting in her own self-interest, like the man is.  It's because women are weak and irresponsible.

Which is why we want to make them raise unwanted children, rather than making decisions based on the situations their families are in.

I'm all for abortions, but I think it's massively irresponsible to get pregnant unintentionally anyways.

Condoms break.

Although I am curious, on the nature of the clinics work and what they provide, what do they provide? Are only the dedicated abortion sections being shut down, or the whole clinics? What is the naturee f the work they need.

The whole clinic is shut down.

Services include STD testing, gynecological exams, mammograms, cancer screenings, birth control of other sorts, and so on and so forth.

And this is why I say you're a reprehensible fuckhead.  Because you don't know the difference between a miscarriage and a birth defect, and you're still trying to "represent the other side."  Problem is, I guess, that you're doing a bit too good of a job because THEY DON'T SEEM TO KNOW ANYTHING EITHER.

[kingfisher1112]

Not only what you are saying but how you are saying it. Needlessly confrontational, "Oh look at the silly progressives getting into a tizzy, just because I said that women are idiots if they get pregnant, and shouldn't be allowed an abortion-option because they're stupid!"

On a related note, why are women the ones who are idiots deserving punishment for have sex, when men are just as much, if not more, responsible for the act? I don't need to tell you (or maybe I do) that a LOT of teenage boys are (inadvertently or intentionally) pressuring girls into having sex. Girls who would otherwise not do it?

When did i say it was exclusively women's fault? Both sides should be ready. Women/girls need to keep their emotions in check and unmanipulated, and boys need to keep emotions and lusts in check. ( Even then it's getting into major assumption territory that girls who aren't ready are pressuring boys into it.) Education should be handled like it is over here in Aussieland. I.e It's your own fault if you decide to get pregnant, keep everything in check, BOTH MUST BE READY. If you don't take steps, you don't take an easy way out.

Well, that's not what I'm intending. After all, it doesn't come out in text like it does in real life. Everyone here should just take a chill pill.

Maybe I'm angry because you're actually a reprehensible fuckhead, not because I'm "sensitive" or whatever you're trying to call me right there.

On a related note, why are women the ones who are idiots deserving punishment for have sex, when men are just as much, if not more, responsible for the act? I don't need to tell you (or maybe I do) that a LOT of teenage boys are (inadvertently or intentionally) pressuring girls into having sex. Girls who would otherwise not do it?

Don't be silly.  You blame the woman for not acting in her own self-interest, like the man is.  It's because women are weak and irresponsible.

Which is why we want to make them raise unwanted children, rather than making decisions based on the situations their families are in.

I'm all for abortions, but I think it's massively irresponsible to get pregnant unintentionally anyways.

Condoms break.

The whole clinic is shut down.

Services include STD testing, gynecological exams, mammograms, cancer screenings, birth control of other sorts, and so on and so forth.

And this is why I say you're a reprehensible fuckhead.  Because you don't know the difference between a miscarriage and a birth defect, and you're still trying to explain why you know everything about this issue.

You do realise i got a warning for insult, right? I don't want you banned, believe it or not.
First off, there are other contraceptive methods. It's not just condoms.
Second off, you assume once more i'm a raging misogynist who thinks women are inferior.
Third off, those services could be moved.
Fourth off, I never said I knew everything, Or implied intentionally. Maybe you could point me in the direction of where I implied?

[SalmonGod]

Although I am curious, on the nature of the clinics work and what they provide, what do they provide? Are only the dedicated abortion sections being shut down, or the whole clinics? What is the naturee f the work they need.

That's kind of a difficult question for me to answer, considering it's not something I've ever personally needed to worry about.

A quick glance at the services offered by some of the women's health clinics in my area show pap smears, mammograms, cervical cancer screening, physicals, therapies for various conditions, education and counseling on a wide range of issues, treatment for infections and stds...

And they provide these services in an environment that's tailored towards making the experience comfortable for women, while I know that it can be very difficult to find good service for women-specific issues among hospitals and family practitioners.  It's not uncommon for them to be sloppy and mean when dealing with those things.  My own wife has had frequent complaints.

And many of these places, such as Planned Parenthood, do their best to try and provide these services to everybody, including people who couldn't normally afford them from other providers that are more profit-oriented.

[DWC]

I'm all for abortions, but I think it's massively irresponsible to get pregnant unintentionally anyways.

Condoms break.

Yeah, I know, especially the old dry-rotten ones like the one in your wallet. Sex also doesn't always happen in the most legally specific consensual and perfectly lucid manner either. Still, it's easy to not get pregnant. You have to make some choices at some point to lead up to you being pregnant, vast majority of the time.

Then again, I specifically remember my deep south edumaction in grade school, a reference sheet listing all the methods of preventing pregnancy and their effectiveness... "abstinence" is apparently only 99.9% effective.

So, abortions are needed at least, for that .1%.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm all for abortions, but I think it's massively irresponsible to get pregnant unintentionally anyways.

Condoms break.

Condoms break, IUD's run out of steam or just fall out, hormonal pills are nullified by unforeseeable body chemistry/medicine, vasectomies and tubal ligations inexplicably reverse themselves...

We humans are the product of many millions of years of evolution, the primary decider of which is whom makes babies and whom does not make babies. We are the end result of 100% of the side that made babies and 0% of the side that did not. Overcoming that, now that the situation has quickly (in an evolutionary context) changed to one in which babies are not usually desirable, is very difficult. Even with all of our science, it took many years for us to get contraception it as good as it is, which still often fails.

It does not help that the very same evolution results in most of us having our Id frequently telling us "Do it. Do it. Do it. Come on, do it. Just do it. Don't listen to them, do it. Nothing bad is going to happen, do it." from pubescence onwards.

[Vector]

All other contraceptive methods also have serious failure modes having nothing to do with personal irresponsibility.  For example, you can get pregnant if you have alcohol while you're on the pill.  This is something doctors often don't tell you (women pass the info around on the internet).  Or you can have sex and then get the flu, in which case presto you can get pregnant.  Or your antibiotics can interact poorly with your contraceptives (again... not usually covered).  This is only one method... there's issues like this for all of them.

Once again: why do you persist on arguing about topics you know nothing about?


Here's the thing.  If you break your arm, even doing something really stupid and risky, we don't just say "hey, you're stupid."  We do what's best for you and set your arm.  And if you have two children while being unable to support a third because economic downturn, we don't make you carry that child to term.  It's not like there's no cost to being pregnant and giving birth.  There's a huge cost to it, physical, mental, financial.  And it's not like there's no cost to being put up for adoption.  There's a big cost to it.  We can eliminate all those costs simultaneously, or we can say "Hey, you were stupid.  I'm just going to make a whole bunch of people suffer because why not."

Because you know who has a lot of sex?  Married couples.  And you know who really, really, really doesn't want to get pregnant--and is the person getting an abortion in the US some 50% of the time?  Someone who is already struggling to feed a family.

Unless you're suggesting abstinence during marriage, in which case, well, okay player :3


The part where you imply that you know anything is the part where you seem to think you're qualified to discuss this topic and are telling people "no, it has nothing to do with bodily autonomy and everything to do with morality."  What this says to me is that you understand nothing whatsoever about what is at stake, and every comment you've made so far has only made me more and more certain.  You don't understand periods, you don't understand birth control, you don't understand women's health clinics, and you don't understand the circumstances under which people usually seek abortion or why "being stupid" is usually not the problem.

Still, it's easy to not get pregnant. You have to make some choices at some point to lead up to you being pregnant, vast majority of the time.

It's true that you could just choose to have gay sex.  That is a really good birth control method.