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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285632 times)

GreatJustice

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3630 on: October 13, 2012, 05:43:11 pm »

The government is there to do whatever the people who elected representatives want it to. If the voters want midnight basketball then it's the government's job to comply. That's democracy.

Just because you say your philosophy demands the government only do certain things, that's irrelevant. You guys lost the voter war, so your views are irrelevant.

Okay. I want 1/3rd of the population to be forced into slavery for the other 2/3rds. The other 2/3rds wins the election and the remaining 1/3rd is forced into slavery. Are their views irrelevant after losing the voter war?
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3631 on: October 13, 2012, 05:47:18 pm »

From all those questions you seem to be struggling to understand how a society works.  Don't worry, I'll help answer them.

But who formed the government?
If you meant the current government, then a group of people elected (directly or indirectly) by the adult populace of your country.  If you mean the original government institution that's somewhat irrelevant since they're dead now - they aren't the ones making decisions today.  The elected people are the ones making decisions today, and it should be possible to override any decisions made by the now dead people which aren't popular.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes, or declare yourself to be "independent" from your country?
For taxes: same thing as what happens if you break any other law deemed to be necessary by the democratically elected government.  For declaring yourself independent: nothing at all, just like declaring yourself to be an 8th grade pianist or a wizard.

What, exactly, makes the government a "legitimate" institution?
Democratic elections among the people being governed.  This isn't synonymous with morality though - for the conditions of it being a legitimate and moral government see below (generally the government should reflect the moral standards of the people electing it).

If everyone on my street has a vote to seize the property of a quarter of the people living here and we vote yes, are we justified in taking their things?
Assuming you mean morally justified then in this question the answer is probably no.  However if a service is required to keep your entire street operational (let's say road repairs, firefighting) and some members of your street are gaining more money as a resident of this street (and thus as a result of this service) you are justified in taking a larger amount from them in order to continue providing this service.  This doesn't stop applying if some of the services are only needed by some of the people, as long as everyone is relying on that same service to keep the whole street operational.  If they do not feel they need these services they can move to another street.  This is a more valid analogy to a government, and I can understand your confusion if you previously believed all the government did was randomly take 25% of the populations things.

In practice it's a lot easier to administrate over a much larger area than a street (otherwise each street would need its own accountancy and enforcement and fire brigade and so on - clearly wasteful when one fire engine can cover multiple streets, and one accountant can oversee the services for many streets) which is countries are generally larger than one street.


How about our town, our county, our province?
See above - a group of people could decide to form a societal unit of that size, but it would be wasteful.  Generally you have some devolution to each of those levels to handle local issues, but having the whole thing overseen by a more centralized government is more efficient.

At what point do we cease to be criminal and become a government?
"Criminal" is a slippery term, tied directly to law.  Assuming there was no state above you then you aren't actually a criminal at any of those levels since you had no laws to break.  However I'll assume by "criminal" you mean "immoral/amoral".

If you follow the guidelines I said in the previous questions you aren't immoral/amoral at any of those levels.  If you take your bad analogy at face value then you are amoral/ immoral at all of them.

What differentiates the government from, say, the mafia?
- Organized criminals are generally not democratically elected by the people in their areas
- Organized criminals do not care about the wellbeing of and generally do not even claim to represent the people living in their areas
- Organized criminals are unlikely to have mechanisms by which their constituents can petition them to change how they operate in an area
- Organized criminals do not provide services essential to a modern society
- Organized criminals do not operate according to a consistent set of laws set down by members of their society, and even if they did they probably would not have an accountable and democratic mechanism for changing those laws
- Organized criminals often do not let their victims stop paying if they leave their area (or they may prevent them from leaving)

Is the mafia legitimate if it provides services of some kind to those it extorts?
No - that is only one of the major differences between the government and your average group of organized criminals.  If your question was amended to the following:
"Is the mafia legitimate if it provides essential services to those it extorts, has democratic elections to decide its members, care about the wellbeing of and represent the interests of those it extorts, have mechanisms whereby those it exorts can petition them to change their practices, operate according to a set of rules determined by their society with clear and democratic means of changing those rules and allows those it extorts to leave their area at any time?"
It might be answerable with "yes", although it may be something of a contradictory question as you've pretty much left the definition of "mafia" by that point.

The welfare state doesn't ultimately improve the lives of its people, it simply shuffles resources around and fools people into thinking their lives are improved. There comes a point where the welfare state is incapable of providing for its people enough to make the costs seem justified, and at this point people begin to resist. This point as already been reached in Greece and Italy, and it likely this point will be reached soon in the rest of the world, including both the USA and France.
This isn't a question but it is a hilariously unjustified assertion.  I can now eat food and sleep under a roof but apparently the government is only tricking me, I was better off when I was sleeping rough and eating from garbage cans.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3632 on: October 13, 2012, 06:12:18 pm »

Okay. I want 1/3rd of the population to be forced into slavery for the other 2/3rds. The other 2/3rds wins the election and the remaining 1/3rd is forced into slavery. Are their views irrelevant after losing the voter war?

The benefit of an actual democratic government is that, hey, at least you need to get a majority to agree with you on something before screwing a minority over. (And why we have things like constitutions and courts to prevent said abuses)

With good ol'capitalism, you really just need to be smart enough and determined enough to do so - you don't need a majority at all!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 06:13:58 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Descan

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3633 on: October 13, 2012, 06:34:42 pm »

I'd call mafiosos more capitalists than governments. More libertarian, at least.
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Montague

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3634 on: October 13, 2012, 06:49:58 pm »

I'd call mafiosos more capitalists than governments. More libertarian, at least.

Capitalism plays by a set of rules. Mafiosos don't.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3635 on: October 13, 2012, 06:53:25 pm »

Sure they do, the rules are just different. Be loyal to the Family, respect your superiors, don't play ball with the cops, don't hurt our business, don't let anyone else disrespect the Family. Stuff like that.
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Flying Dice

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3636 on: October 13, 2012, 07:31:11 pm »

Hence why it's called organized crime.
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Montague

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3637 on: October 13, 2012, 07:37:19 pm »

Sure they do, the rules are just different. Be loyal to the Family, respect your superiors, don't play ball with the cops, don't hurt our business, don't let anyone else disrespect the Family. Stuff like that.

They bend the rules when it suits them... Well, sorta like cops do.

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Flying Dice

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3638 on: October 13, 2012, 07:39:09 pm »

Sure they do, the rules are just different. Be loyal to the Family, respect your superiors, don't play ball with the cops, don't hurt our business, don't let anyone else disrespect the Family. Stuff like that.

They bend the rules when it suits them... Well, sorta like cops do.
Like any group does. Blindly sticking to the rules regardless of the circumstances is deep in Lawful Stupid territory.
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Pnx

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3639 on: October 13, 2012, 09:09:58 pm »

Also organized crime gangs usually run by the same basic principles of a corporation or any capitalistic business, because they are a capitalistic business.

The primary purpose of a gang is to make money, be it through extortion, the black market, assassinations, and sometimes even a little bit of legitimate business.

They do pretty much everything a corporation does too, they pay their members, sometimes it's commission, sometimes it's a regular wage. They have management structures, bases of operations, and also do things like PR (sometimes in the form of intimidating people, sometimes in the form of charity work to cultivate a good reputation). A successful gang is essentially just another corporation, although one that tends to employ a lot of violence and intimidation (although of course in the old days before the law tended to start holding them accountable, so did corporations).
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Montague

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3640 on: October 13, 2012, 09:20:13 pm »

Also organized crime gangs usually run by the same basic principles of a corporation or any capitalistic business, because they are a capitalistic business.

The primary purpose of a gang is to make money, be it through extortion, the black market, assassinations, and sometimes even a little bit of legitimate business.

They do pretty much everything a corporation does too, they pay their members, sometimes it's commission, sometimes it's a regular wage. They have management structures, bases of operations, and also do things like PR (sometimes in the form of intimidating people, sometimes in the form of charity work to cultivate a good reputation). A successful gang is essentially just another corporation, although one that tends to employ a lot of violence and intimidation (although of course in the old days before the law tended to start holding them accountable, so did corporations).

Gangs have an absolute code of rules they abide by. Well, they have very strict guidelines and the punishment is usually severe, anyways. Idk if you would call that honor. They have life-long commitments. You cannot just leave a gang and join another at your whimsy, unlike with a corporation.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3641 on: October 13, 2012, 09:22:36 pm »

They aren't necessarily life-long commitments. Some gangs are for life, but others let you retire from the lifestyle peacefully. Apparently a common reason for that is starting a family, at which point continuing the gang life would put them in danger.
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3642 on: October 13, 2012, 09:24:04 pm »

Gangs have an absolute code of rules they abide by. Well, they have very strict guidelines and the punishment is usually severe, anyways. Idk if you would call that honor. They have life-long commitments. You cannot just leave a gang and join another at your whimsy, unlike with a corporation.
Why is that? Is it because corporations are inherently superior, or because they abide by rules of law that would prevent that type of behavior?

Their argument, of course, is that a mafia type gang is the ideal government-less entity. Now I wouldn't call them totally representative of corporations in a randian paradise, as their dodging law and regulation is a significant part of why they're violent and such, but how gangs deal with each other in a cutthroat manner is less far fetched a comparison.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3643 on: October 13, 2012, 09:28:40 pm »

And actually, depending on your skills and job, you can bounce from gang to gang being employed by them. Though from what I understand it's not common, and you're never really a "member" of the gang, just employed by them - a contractor, kind of.
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3644 on: October 13, 2012, 09:29:51 pm »

Guys we're offtopic, we have a whole subforum dedicated this kind of chat too.
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