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Wait for the next release. I want usable mugs damn it!

55 (71.4%)

We can use the current one. I like the big trees and slightly smarter dorfs.

17 (22.1%)

I'll take .34.11 thanks. I want to know I'll get to kill things for sure.

5 (6.5%)

Total Members Voted: 77

[Baffler]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up already, but I think I have an idea to explain the Sequiv. If you'll permit me...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay, so basically, the sequiv are separated from most or all other races by their means of communication or perception. They may not be all that different morally and their culture is strange but not entirely incomprehensible. If anyone has read Ender's Game, a similar concept applies between humans and buggers. The Sequiv don't see the Dwarves/Elves/whoever as sentient because they aren't a part of their gestalt or whatever, but more as highly aggressive social animals that are sitting on things the Sequiv place value on either strategically or economically. They would see fighting with the Dwarves of Spearbreakers as trying to kill a den of vicious lions or exterminating an infestation of army ants. It makes it possible to write from their perspective believably, and they remain a mostly implacable, even potentially terrifying enemy.

[Lolfail0009]

I leave for two days. TWO DAYS.
And the best thing to happen to this thread... well, happens.

SBII will be the best god-damned thing in the history of god-damned things.

[Mr Frog]

@Baffler:

I don't like that explanation. It's stupid. Okay, that's going a little far, but I just woke up from an unscheduled nap and am both disoriented and very grumpy, so bear with me for a moment.

Ahem...

Spoiler: Rant Warning (click to show/hide)

I don't like it because it edges way too close into Incomprehensible Aliens^TM territory, which I hate hate hate with an unholy passion. In your theory, the sequvet are incapable of empathising with the other races just because. Yes, you could say that it's because they think differently than the other races, but that doesn't hold water in my mind. I should think that they would still be able to form some sort of understanding with the others even if they didn't think the same way, so the only real reason they wouldn't is because they're just straight-up, arbitrarily Evil^TM. And yes, what you describe is basically Evil^TM in a nutshell: they don't understand or care about the suffering of other species and think they're in a position above them. And the problem with Evil^TM is that it's boring for me to read about. There's no higher justification to it that the authour cares to elaborate on, no capacity to explore the deeper implications of it -- because there are none. They're just Evil, plain and simple, no reasoning for it -- and saying that there is a reason for it that humans can't understand doesn't count, because you aren't actually defining or explaining it in any capacity, so it comes back to the same problem of being boring to read about.

Ahh, it's good to be back.

Anyways, I'd promised myself I'd try to be more open to others' ideas this time, but I just don't like this one, sorry   You're free to defend your idea if you think I've misunderstood something, though.

[TalonisWolf]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up already, but I think I have an idea to explain the Sequiv. If you'll permit me...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay, so basically, the sequiv are separated from most or all other races by their means of communication or perception. They may not be all that different morally and their culture is strange but not entirely incomprehensible. If anyone has read Ender's Game, a similar concept applies between humans and buggers. The Sequiv don't see the Dwarves/Elves/whoever as sentient because they aren't a part of their gestalt or whatever, but more as highly aggressive social animals that are sitting on things the Sequiv place value on either strategically or economically. They would see fighting with the Dwarves of Spearbreakers as trying to kill a den of vicious lions or exterminating an infestation of army ants. It makes it possible to write from their perspective believably, and they remain a mostly implacable, even potentially terrifying enemy.

@Baffler:

I don't like that explanation. It's stupid. Okay, that's going a little far, but I just woke up from an unscheduled nap and am both disoriented and very grumpy, so bear with me for a moment.

Ahem...

Spoiler: Rant Warning (click to show/hide)

I don't like it because it edges way too close into Incomprehensible Aliens^TM territory, which I hate hate hate with an unholy passion. In your theory, the sequvet are incapable of empathising with the other races just because. Yes, you could say that it's because they think differently than the other races, but that doesn't hold water in my mind. I should think that they would still be able to form some sort of understanding with the others even if they didn't think the same way, so the only real reason they wouldn't is because they're just straight-up, arbitrarily Evil^TM. And yes, what you describe is basically Evil^TM in a nutshell: they don't understand or care about the suffering of other species and think they're in a position above them. And the problem with Evil^TM is that it's boring for me to read about. There's no higher justification to it that the authour cares to elaborate on, no capacity to explore the deeper implications of it -- because there are none. They're just Evil, plain and simple, no reasoning for it -- and saying that there is a reason for it that humans can't understand doesn't count, because you aren't actually defining or explaining it in any capacity, so it comes back to the same problem of being boring to read about.

Ahh, it's good to be back.

Anyways, I'd promised myself I'd try to be more open to others' ideas this time, but I just don't like this one, sorry   You're free to defend your idea if you think I've misunderstood something, though.

I believe he was saying that they simply are so advanced that they don't realize that the people of Everoc are sentient or civilized since their notion of "sentience" and "civilized" is based on a culture which is so advanced.

I feel I worded that badly, but I'm typing 1:01 in morning because of no sleep. I'll clarify after you guys leave your criticism and questions so I can answer in one post.

[Mr Frog]

@TalonisWolf:

I'm not sure how I feel about that one. There are indeed many historical examples of human colonists viewing less-advanced natives as sub-human, but this feels a lot more extreme -- like they're failing to even acknowledge that the humans/etc. are sentient, which comes off as a glaring lapse in judgement. And it also falls into the trap of treating the entire species as absolutely-monolithic -- I'd think that at least some seqivet would sympathise with the 'lesser' creatures even if they were too afraid to voice it.

I'm not entirely-averse to this particular interpretation, but I still like my idea better (because, to put it bluntly, I'm an egocentric dickhead).

[Splint]

This goes with the "Some are dicks, some aren't" version quite nicely. Group A wants to just do their thing and not have other races suffer/get involved in any capacity besides maybe trade.

Group B is a bunch of high and mighty pricks who view everyone else as less than their own race and are willing to cut them down for the slightest thing/to get at things that they might want or need, while veiwing Group A as a bunch of bleeding hearts that care a little too much about the savages and have no stomach for a fight when one is deemed needed. Group B is also probably the vengeful sorts of the populous.

Group C is the "leave us out of your arguments" silent/not really vocal majority, simply trying to go about their day. If they feel fighting the various critters such as dwarves or humans will be worth it (say to get a few metric fucktons of raw materials they need for their tools and such,) then they'll fight but otherwise like Group A would much prefer keeping to themselves, and interaction with other races to a minimum.

Group A and B are essentially the extremes, with A being our equivalent to animal rights people (that paints them as dicks still don't it? ) and B being full blown "FUCK EVERYTHING" and willing to kick the utter shit out of anything and everything for whatever reason (revenge for some of their fellows, resources, or if the Seqivet don't frown upon slavery, even beating down and subjugating them; after all, they don't seem like the types to work underground for long periods of time.) This group may also count generally belligerent jerks looking to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble, much like manamaids who go out looking for fights because they find it fun.

I dunno. I just woke up so some of that may lose cohesion or sound repetitive.

[TalonisWolf]

@TalonisWolf:

I'm not sure how I feel about that one. There are indeed many historical examples of human colonists viewing less-advanced natives as sub-human, but this feels a lot more extreme -- like they're failing to even acknowledge that the humans/etc. are sentient, which comes off as a glaring lapse in judgement. And it also falls into the trap of treating the entire species as absolutely-monolithic -- I'd think that at least some seqivet would sympathise with the 'lesser' creatures even if they were too afraid to voice it.

I'm not entirely-averse to this particular interpretation, but I still like my idea better (because, to put it bluntly, I'm an egocentric dickhead).

Went back through and found your idea(s), and I agree with you. When I posted, my Ipad would only load the last page of the thread(retrospect:should've waited to learn more. This is MY FAULT for pure idiocy.

However, I wasn't saying your idea was bad, just that perhaps your interpretation of Baffler's idea wasn't what he was trying to say.

Also, on that: I was trying to say that they are so intelligent that they look at us like we'd look at a monkey-smart, we'd still "eliminate" them for timber or cropland. Again, my fault for bad wording.

[Baffler]

This may just confuse everyone even further, but once more, if you'll permit me...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't mean that they can't empathize with other races just because, they could be perfectly able to do so. They just communicate in a different way, and because the Dwarves don't respond in the same manner, they conclude that they are simply animals, and not sentient. I can think of a few creatures, ants for instance, that communicate using pheromones. Now obviously ants aren't going to be trying to assert their sentience to us, but bear with me.

Would a hypothetical creature that communicates using pheromones have any idea what the sounds I make mean? No,  just as I would have no way of picking up on what their pheromones mean, if I was even aware of them at all. No matter how nuanced either one is, and even if they think the exact same way, neither group would have any understanding of the other simply because of what essentially amounts to a language barrier up to 11. Sure, maybe with enough time and a neutral setting it could be figured out, but the only time they interact is when the Sequiv saboteurs come into the fortress, and the Dwarves won't be any more inclined to talk to the infiltrators than the infiltrators will be to the guards who come after them.

I do admit that I'm not quite as enthusiastic about the idea as I was when I first posted it, and am certainly not expecting people to just go along with this. I just don't think I explained it adequately above, but I still do stand by the idea.

[Aseaheru]

So how do they communicate? Vocial, mental, what?

[TalonisWolf]

I think he's implying they communicate through pheromones?

EDIT:@Baffler

Don't take any of this personally, Mr.Frog just wants the best for his brainRAWs(brainchild as well?).

HellSpearbreakers, that applies to everyone in this thread, if you really think about it. The !!FUN!! has captured ourhearts dwarfiness.

[Aseaheru]

Allright. Makes some sense, humans even communicate that way to an extent.

[Mr Frog]

I think he's implying they communicate through pheromones?

EDIT:@Baffler

Don't take any of this personally, Mr.Frog just wants the best for his brainRAWs(brainchild as well?).

HellSpearbreakers, that applies to everyone in this thread, if you really think about it. The !!FUN!! has captured ourhearts dwarfiness.

This is really sweet. And I'm not even being sarcastic --

WAIT.

Mr.Frog

Mr.Frog

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

E: On-topic... There are other cues besides language that a species is sentient. I don't see why the seqivet wouldn't notice other obvious evidence of sophisticated intelligence, such as the development of advanced tools and artwork.

Incidentally, as long as I'm taking Baffler's idea apart, I think it only fair that other people give my idea the same treatment, if they like.

E: Ack! I keep saying 'sentient' when I mean 'sapient'! I'd never let that slide if I caught someone else doing it >>;

[ChaosMaker]

YoUr SoUlS BeLONg tO TERRY nOW!!! ScREaM MorTALs!!!!!
also congrats on finishing...reading 36 right now...

*Crackles Insanely*

I read Deathgate...both of them...Murdermachines will triumph over deathgate soon....very soon.....

[Cynm]

I think that, for story purposes, we should make sure that sapient creatures have some ability to vocalize. Things like pheromone communication seem like they would be difficult to write.

[Terrahex]

Sign me up for a dwarf in the next fortress. I don't know if i'll write anything seeing as i kinda quit playing ages ago, but i still love stories like these. I'll have to finish reading spearbreakers though. Who knows? I got a netter computer now. Maybe i'll start playing again.

Also, i'm not in the casualties list, even though someone told me my dwarf died.