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[Leafsnail]

...So your example doesn't prove that piracy hit their sales at all?

[Criptfeind]

How not? Unless you think it is reasonable to assume that no one that pirated it would have purchased it. And do you find it reasonable that piracy never hurts sales?

[Loud Whispers]

Piracy DOES hurt game sales

Proof?

Really? As in. Ever?

How about spore? Just as a example. They had like a huge piracy rate. Even if they deserved it, that's still piracy hurting game sales.

World of goo had a 90% piracy rate at one point. This is not some shitty game put out by a giant uncaring company. It was a great game, and they went with no DRM for the same reason many people say there should be no DRM. And it looks like it might have bit them in the ass.

Still doesn't say if it actually hurt their sales at all though, as we have nothing to compare it too if it wasn't pirated.
>Argument about people who wouldn't have bought it otherwise.
>Pointing out record sales for most entertainment industries.

[Frumple]

I'd say that's not a reasonable assumption, no. It's also not reasonable to assume the other direction. No numbers, you see. What's the statistical variance between people who would buy if no illegitimate source was available versus people who wouldn't?

Until we can actually put a number on that (By a third party, not involved with either the pro or anti piracy groups), we're pretty much pulling everything out our ass. Well, that and about a dozen other things related to the subject.

Is there even anyone reputable and uninvolved attempting to track numbers on all this shit, anyway? Sale rate before/after illegit sources are available, sales vs. unique downloads of illegit. copies, disparity between physical and digital distribution of illegit. copies, difference in rates between first and third world countries, probably the dozen other variables that need to be tracked to get an actual picture of what's going on? There's got to be a few academic studies tracking this shtick by this point.

Because both sides are prone to yanking vague numbers from "sources" (which they either won't reveal, don't exist, are being bankrolled by someone heavily invested in the results, and/or using shitpoor methodology) from their nether regions.

Basically, reasonable is nice, but reasonable is trumped straight to hell by statistics when you're dealing with this sort of thing. Let's get some reason trumping in this discussion, people!

[Criptfeind]

That's a great thought Frumple. Would you be willing to start us out with that?

[darklord92]

Piracy DOES hurt game sales

Proof?

Really? As in. Ever?

How about spore? Just as a example. They had like a huge piracy rate. Even if they deserved it, that's still piracy hurting game sales.

World of goo had a 90% piracy rate at one point. This is not some shitty game put out by a giant uncaring company. It was a great game, and they went with no DRM for the same reason many people say there should be no DRM. And it looks like it might have bit them in the ass.

Still doesn't say if it actually hurt their sales at all though, as we have nothing to compare it too if it wasn't pirated.
>Argument about people who wouldn't have bought it otherwise.
>Pointing out record sales for most entertainment industries.

The point is: PIRACY HAPPENS, even if we could go back in time and see the sales if piracy didn't exist the fact is ligament customers decided to pirate the game being a loss of a "copies"sale. even if they did pay for it later or instead shared with others so they wouldn't have to buy. the fact is as minor as it is there is a detrimental affect on sales.

the fact of the matter:

Does piracy hurt sales:


How much does it hurt it:

We may never actually know the true amount that it does!

[Frumple]

That's a great thought Frumple. Would you be willing to start us out with that?

Nope

That's the major reason why I've not been chiming in much. Don't have the numbers to back anything up and am without ready access to (reputable) academic sources at the moment. There's probably someone in a college/uni that provides journal access reading along that could dig some stuff up, though.

[alway]

the fact is as minor as it is there is a detrimental affect on sales.

No, that has yet to be shown. Pirated copies are not lost sales and can not be counted as such unless a person would have otherwise bought them. Going even further, piracy can even greatly increase sales. A very large portion of the game industry is marketing. Someone who has never heard of, for example, Braid, would never ever buy it, because they aren't even aware of its existence. Meanwhile, if that person comes across positive forums posts, sees the game being played, particularly by friends, they are much more likely to buy it themselves, whether or not the place they saw it was originally a pirated copy.

On top of all that, people who pirate games do not spend less on the medium then those who do, as per the study done by the government of Switzerland* when the question of piracy was brought up. Or in other words, the games/music industry as a whole are not losing any money to piracy. If you pirate $1000 retail price in games each month, then buy $50 in games each month, if you were to stop pirating, you wouldn't spend $1050 on games each month, you would pay $50 in games each month and simply play less games or cheaper games with no overall negative effect on the industry. It's called budgeting, and is a hard limit on how much a person will spend for entertainment. Believing otherwise is to live in a magic fantasy world where money is never a problem.

*Original: http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/ejpd/de/home/dokumentation/mi/2011/2011-11-30.html

[darklord92]

I am agreeing with that but it still ahs to be taken into consideration excessive piracy. normal piracy does have an effect. abet a very minor near insignificant one, even a 10$ loss could be attributed to a pirated copy but would it matter NO, but when pirates excessively pirate something for there own cause and profit than there is something wrong and we all know those shady kiosks where you can buy games "cheaply" exist. and they are "leeching" sales with no return to the original producer, even than there sales may even do nothing to offset a company. If a pirate pirates something for himself and maybe a friend the impact would be VERY VERY minor. If a pirate starts to sell those games for his own profit even than the impact would be minor, but that impact still exists.

[Deadmeat1471]

Why is it that indie games are so successful?

Stop right there scum.

Lots of Indie games are terrible and fail. AAA games, by definition, do not. I would certainly say more indie games suck and die then AAA games.

Piracy DOES hurt game sales

Proof?

Really? As in. Ever?

How about spore? Just as a example. They had like a huge piracy rate. Even if they deserved it, that's still piracy hurting game sales.

World of goo had a 90% piracy rate at one point. This is not some shitty game put out by a giant uncaring company. It was a great game, and they went with no DRM for the same reason many people say there should be no DRM. And it looks like it might have bit them in the ass.

I feel sorry for world of Goo, they didn't deserve such a high rate.

As for the rest - No sympathy.

[GlyphGryph]

Criptfiend - all you've done was prove that people pirated the games. That's not even EVIDENCE that it hurt sales, forget proof.

Do you have any evidence, any at all, that piracy hurts sales? If its so obvious, it should be easy to find, right?

Because I can provide actual evidence that it doesn't. (overall, my evidence doesn't cover specific products mind you)

[Deadmeat1471]

'Do you have any evidence, any at all, that piracy hurts sales? If its so obvious, it should be easy to find, right?'

I would equate this statement to judging the crime rate by crimes not comitted. You don't know how many were not comitted, but you know crime exists none the less.

I think the key issue here isnt whether piracy has any effect, it is how much of an effect and if the causes are the fault largely of the big developers/pubs, or pirates or of a lack of software security and law or a collection of the above.

Personally I think its the developers fault for failing to provide a good standard of product for the market and the legal system for thinking they can simply curtail it by increasing counter piracy operations instead of thinking seriously about the issue and how they can make people not want to pirate. Instead they think they can police the internet and get their asses handed to them by groups like Anon.

Napoleon once said something about not enacting laws you cannot enforce.
Internet piracy is the prime example of this.

[darklord92]

I wholely agree. This is one of the reasons steam and Itunes brought piracy down of there products. it became EASIER to use them than pirate let alone most people are worried of being tracked or "busted" by using things like bittorrent, downloading legally was safer and if not slightly easier. Remove risk make it easy people will do it.

[Cthulhu]

If one person pirates a game who could (As in, has the money) and would have bought the game otherwise, then piracy has hurt sales. 

I've heard a pretty convincing argument that actually would have taken me from negatively viewing piracy to considering it a neutral thing, but for two problems.  The argument was that the pirates aren't eating the money they don't spend on video games.  They're still spending the money, just on other things.  It's less loss of money and more dynamic reallocation of money.

Problems:  What happens if they're "spending" money they don't have?  If I live in my parents basement, have zero income, and am completely dependent on other people to support me (And never spend money on video games), does that still hold true?  The money I don't spend on video games is lost because it doesn't exist.

Also, the fact still remains that the pirates are still enjoying goods/services (Whichever you call them) that they haven't compensated the creator for.  Even if the money is going somewhere else the game is still being "consumed" (You can't really call it that but you get the idea) without being paid for so hm.  I'm actually not sure I can say anything's being lost, because nothing is actually being consumed.


For the record, I'm a semi-reformed pirate.  I don't care about the political/moral issues of it, I pirate and I don't like it, and I'm working to stop doing it.  A significant number of pirated games I liked I've later bought in an attempt to equalize my E-Karma.

[Deadmeat1471]

I would feel bad about pirates, if the capitalist system wasn't so inequal to so many people.

One kid is born into wealth, a good school, gets a good job, inherits daddies business and doesnt pirate.

Another kid is born into poverty, steals a loaf of bread, or Spore, and hes a criminal.

I feel piracy is less of a crime than the following:
Any citizen to be poor in the richest country in the world through no fault of their own.
Any citizen to be born rich through no work of their own.

Yes its a crime, but so is the income disparity in every country in the western world. If I have sympathy for someone, it isn't the wealthy industrialist or megacorporation or Sony, it's the kid on no or a tiny wage in such an industrial and resource rich nation.

I know this view isn't shared by many people, but this is my personal opinion.

*someone here has a quote as their sig that exemplifys what I mean.

'The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.'
    Anatole France