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Author Topic: GRIMOIRE: The best RPG of 1996 is now on IndieGogo. Do your duty! Try the demo!  (Read 18695 times)

Retropunch

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I always thought Cleve was sort of just a complete wacky parody of...everything. Like as in, I didn't think he was actually a member of the alt-right. When he says things like:
 "if action is not taken soon [to destroy America], heaven is obligated to issue a public apology to Sodom and Gomorrah and a possible lawsuit for reparations may be in the cards."

I can't really believe that anything he says is meant in honesty, although I could be very wrong - is there somewhere that it's made clear he's not joking and actually believes *insert terrible stuff*. Normally I don't hold it against studios if one or more of their organisation is a bit weird/awful (Bioware for instance) but as it's just him then I'm a little bit less inclined to part with money if he is genuinely awful.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 09:18:48 am by Retropunch »
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With enough work and polish, it could have been a forgettable flash game on Kongregate.

Majestic7

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I have no idea who this dude is, I had never heard of him before running across this game. But on the general level I used to believe that trolling in the sense of offensive stuff was just the way internet is and a tasteless way to get some lulz. During the last couple of years I couldn't help but notice there are people who take all the nazi stuff that used to be just jokes and run with it seriously. Then, if that is pointed out, they defend themselves by saying it was just a joke. So it has become a sort of shield to hide your ideals behind. After that the trolling stopped being fun.

Guardian had a good article about the phenomenon: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/23/alt-right-online-humor-as-a-weapon-facism

Edit: I'm having a slow sunday so I looked for some information about the dude. Reddit has a thread with entertaining links, it certainly seems he is not a run of the mill alt-righter but something special: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/127cbe/grimoire_heralds_of_the_winged_exemplar_an_old/
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 09:52:25 am by Majestic7 »
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blkholsun

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Edit: I'm having a slow sunday so I looked for some information about the dude. Reddit has a thread with entertaining links, it certainly seems he is not a run of the mill alt-righter but something special: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/127cbe/grimoire_heralds_of_the_winged_exemplar_an_old/
I mean, you're right... the more I read about him, the more it becomes clear that he isn't garden variety racist, he is just insane. Does that make it morally less weird to give him money? In a strange sense it almost seems like it does. I don't know. Luckily I'm not THAT interested in the game in the first place, so I'm not too torn about it.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 03:12:16 pm by blkholsun »
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blkholsun

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I always thought Cleve was sort of just a complete wacky parody of...everything. Like as in, I didn't think he was actually a member of the alt-right. When he says things like:
 "if action is not taken soon [to destroy America], heaven is obligated to issue a public apology to Sodom and Gomorrah and a possible lawsuit for reparations may be in the cards."

I can't really believe that anything he says is meant in honesty, although I could be very wrong - is there somewhere that it's made clear he's not joking and actually believes *insert terrible stuff*. Normally I don't hold it against studios if one or more of their organisation is a bit weird/awful (Bioware for instance) but as it's just him then I'm a little bit less inclined to part with money if he is genuinely awful.
He certainly could be "just joking" but if so, he has successfully kept up an unbroken charade for a long, long time, sort of like if Stephen Colbert had never ever dropped the persona when The Colbert Report was a thing. It would be a pretty remarkable long con. I suspect he's just the real deal.
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CoyoteTheClever

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Okay, I've spent about 11 hours on the game so far. For people who want to know how it is like...

First of all, it is incredibly archaic. Every bad interface design decision from the 1990's era of dungeon crawlers has been left intact, as well as many bad gameplay design decisions (Rolling for stats, encouraging savescumming). Expect lots of pointless clicking to do whatever you want to do, one of the most painful inventory management systems I've ever seen, and nothing within the interface actually meant to save you any time or effort. Item stats are as minimalistic and uninformative as possible, and it is very vague as to what a lot of the statistics of your characters actually do. Expect lots of diving into the forums and guides to figure things out.

Some of the bad gameplay design decisions are from before even the 90's, like massively impairing strength stats for women in character generation while just giving them a small bonus to fellowship (Which doesn't seem to do much of anything, but the bonus you get to it is much less than what they lose in strength, which affects a ton of things like damage, armor penetration, how much gear they can wear, ect). Don't mention that particular problem on his forums though unless you want a flame war and ban though ;)! Luckily, that's about the extent that his political ideology seems to have affected the gameplay from what I can tell so far (Though there is plenty of garden variety insanity in it, but that can be charming or even amusing). 

There are a lot of really weird balancing decisions, and most of these seem to be intentional. You get to choose out of a lot of different starting locations, but most will be very unfun unless you've spent the requisite 4 hours rerolling the stats of your initial party and making sure they are the correct class and race balance. Even after you've done this, it is they will still be somewhat unfun, but at least you'll get an item that will maybe open up something way later down the road for you. There is one option where you can get a bunch of experience and an overpowered item, but although that is the "correct" option for the early game, who knows what the items the other starts will do late game.

The graphics are what they are. I find them charming as well, though they are repetitive and inconsistent. Enemies will often use the same sprite, sometimes even within the same dungeon, without even a color swap! The music and sound effects is what it is too. I'd suggest listening to something else, unless you want to be driven as insane as the dev.

There were bugs in the beginning. Lots of bugs. Save-killing bugs (The best kind of bug for a supposedly 600 hour game :D). Now there are mostly strange balance decisions left, as well as a few placeholder features (There is a FOOD bar that doesn't do anything and is apparently going to be replaced with sanity. The metallurgy skill isn't complete. I'm sure there are other things too).

We've been told there is a manual coming soon (Which is definitely necessary to know what the heck you are doing in this game), but the dev thinks some people are pirating his game so he is prioritizing DRM for now it looks like. Any kind of strange decision like that is echo'd back to him as being correct by his bizarre and abrasive fanbase, who can troll with impunity on his boards while anyone challenging them or trolling back gets a ban. If you go there for help, make sure to grovel a little and maybe your question will get answered. But some questions will get you trolled no matter what, like if you ask about what a certain stat does (The answer is usually that no one knows. Some on the board don't think even the dev knows what he coded over this 20 years and he is waiting for the community to figure it out so he can put it in his manual).

And yet... The game is oddly compelling. I can completely understand why no one normal would want to give the dev $40. He is the worst kind of crank, whether he is some bizarre paleoconservative -alt right hybrid or just Alex Jones levels of insane. Certainly the interface doesn't feel worth the trouble most of the time, and the game's story isn't going to win any awards. But there is some very old-school styled dungeon crawl exploration fun to be found here. And there is a lot of design depth in the core gameplay.

Would I recommend the game? Hell no. But at least on Bay 12 Game Forums, there are probably people who would get a lot of fun out of it. And a little interaction with the Grimoire community and dev might make a lot of people here very thankful for what they have in Dwarf Fortress' devs and community.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:42:38 pm by CoyoteTheClever »
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Sirus

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I wonder if mods will be possible to change some of those...poor decisions. Especially the casual sexism "woman aren't strong lol" crap.

Logically I know I should take my money elsewhere, but I'm a sucker for extensive class and race options in RPGs. I'll probably wait for a massive sale unless things either drastically improve or the dev's DRM attempts render the game actually unplayable.
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CoyoteTheClever

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I wonder if mods will be possible to change some of those...poor decisions. Especially the casual sexism "woman aren't strong lol" crap.

Logically I know I should take my money elsewhere, but I'm a sucker for extensive class and race options in RPGs. I'll probably wait for a massive sale unless things either drastically improve or the dev's DRM attempts render the game actually unplayable.

The dev says his game will never go on sale. Any conversation on the matter tends to lead to some rant against entitled millennials from him, the sanctity of the value of his work ,ect. This is another decision reinforced by his fanbase, who seem to think of the price as some kind of paygate separated the "hardcore real gamers" from casual noobs who don't deserve to play the same games they do.

Some of the nicer evangelists for the game like to hand out free copies on the forum from time to time, that may be your best bet. Maybe you can write a post about how you lost your job because you said something politically incorrect at work but really want to support the dev's cause  ;D? That might be a little topical for them to fall for though. It is questionable whether the game is worth $40. There is obviously a lot of content, but a lot of the time will be spent in frustration or doing mundane inventory tasks.

As for modding, well, I'd fear for the sanity of any modder that wants to dig into the coding of the game, but I'd certainly appreciate it! It is definitely more likely than the dev ever being convinced he was wrong about any of the design elements of his game.
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Neonivek

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entitled millennials

Mmmm the irony is delicious.

I am not even IN the Millennial population and I ALREADY know they are the next "Generation X" group.

Sorry man but sales are part of the current Steam Culture. Refusing to EVER do sales, and being called out on it, leads to fair criticism. You don't HAVE to do sales, but they don't HAVE to be happy about it (Hence why the official definition of Entitled should be: "You want things that I don't believe you should want"... If the dictionary can make the definition of Literally to be "figuratively", regardless of hyperbole, then you can do that too dictionary!)

Yeah a lot of people only buy things on sales, and you aren't going to get that audience... and that audience can be pissed all they want.

Quote
Especially the casual sexism "woman aren't strong lol" crap

Goodness... I wonder what would occur if a game actually included the real averages, minimums, and maximums of men and women (How much would that game be torn apart?). I mean games are escapist and one of the greatest aspects of it is you can just ignore how real life sets things up and I prefer that INSTEAD of including sexual dimorphism... Yet I am not SURE if I'd call including dimorphism to be "casual sexism".

Unless you mean it gimps women on strength so they can never be remotely strong (Ms. Muscles has something to say to you developer) Or this is a world of supernatural attributes where it makes no sense to exist... In which case yeah your perfectly right.

Though GOODNESS is it aggravating if your assessment is correct...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 09:26:55 pm by Neonivek »
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CoyoteTheClever

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entitled millennials

Mmmm the irony is delicious.

I am not even IN the Millennial population and I ALREADY know they are the next "Generation X" group.

Sorry man but sales are part of the current Steam Culture. Refusing to EVER do sales, and being called out on it, leads to fair criticism. You don't HAVE to do sales, but they don't HAVE to be happy about it (Hence why the official definition of Entitled should be: "You want things that I don't believe you should want"... If the dictionary can make the definition of Literally to be "figuratively", regardless of hyperbole, then you can do that too dictionary!)

Yeah a lot of people only buy things on sales, and you aren't going to get that audience... and that audience can be pissed all they want.

Quote
Especially the casual sexism "woman aren't strong lol" crap

Goodness... I wonder what would occur if a game actually included the real averages, minimums, and maximums of men and women (How much would that game be torn apart?). I mean games are escapist and one of the greatest aspects of it is you can just ignore how real life sets things up and I prefer that INSTEAD of including sexual dimorphism... Yet I am not SURE if I'd call including dimorphism to be "casual sexism".

Unless you mean it gimps women on strength so they can never be remotely strong (Ms. Muscles has something to say to you developer) Or this is a world of supernatural attributes where it makes no sense to exist... In which case yeah your perfectly right.

Though GOODNESS is it aggravating if your assessment is correct...

To dig in to how stats work a little more.

When you pick a certain race, the stats are always the same. So every human has 40 stats across the board, for instance. Unless they are a female, then they lose anywhere between 10-15 strength depending on the race, and gain 8 fellowship.

After you pick your race, you roll for bonus points with a 4d8 or 5d6, and depending on the amount of bonus points you get, you might qualify for other classes, as every class has stat requirements. The extra fellowship does help women qualify to be bards, but it also makes it difficult for them to be all of the physical classes. Picking a woman as a physical class is pretty much handicapping yourself, since you will have less extra points to spend on attributes, hp, destiny or skills, and the extra stat will be in something that is useless for your physical class.

Regardless of someone's views on gender, it is hard to see how this system tracks with reality. Maybe if the stats were randomized and the tables generating them favored certain stats for men and certain stats for women, you could argue the developer was trying to design around some sort of theory of gender difference, but instead it is just men are good at fighting while women are good at singing and looking pretty, which is a much cruder stereotype. One that his faithful on the boards of course will defend to the death as the most realistic system ever devised in an RPG (And then they'll start getting into their own personal bugaboos about women in the military or whatever else).
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Neonivek

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I mean it doesn't have to be hyper realistic...

But yeah it sounds like a terrible system and definitely doesn't seem like it was meant to reflect any sort of dimorphism and doesn't respect its own setting... I'll outright accept the "Casual Sexism" status.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 10:03:41 pm by Neonivek »
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Sirus

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That's a pretty huge drop in Strength, 25% weaker at base stats. The average woman might be weaker than the average man in real life, but I don't think the gap is quite that extreme. In any case, a woman who's trained to be a fighter would likely be very strong just like a man trained for the same role.
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Neonivek

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but I don't think the gap is quite that extreme

Well the range given is about ~40%-~70% (Of College Students)... However that also leads to

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In any case, a woman who's trained to be a fighter would likely be very strong just like a man trained for the same role

You would think that the heroic requirements to be a fighter would kick out those at the lower registers (Bona Fide). So you would think the baseline for fighters would be similar across the genders.

But as I said... it REALLY doesn't come off as the developer was trying to be realistic / dimorphic. It doesn't fit the themes and stands out VERY oddly in the other mechanics.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 10:17:34 pm by Neonivek »
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