New UI is shit.
After a game reaches a certain point of complexity is it even possible to create a ui the majority of players would consider good? And not just one everyone is used to?
Not sure if it is any useful to reply to this thread but :
- Honestly how could you say that the mouse is "unplayable" ? What is the argument for this ? Now you can play the whole game with only 1 or 2 buttons. Not to mention how convenient it is to build stuff with it.
- However, I also think the old controls were perfectly fine too, like you said the side panel did it all anyway so whatever you wanted to achieve you just read it on the panel and you were good to go.
Anyway this kind of effort the devs are pulling out does not deserve this kind of hate. For sure change is always hard to overcome but this is not like they ruined the game, plus it is their game so they kind of do whatever they want with it. In the end my point is that you could just have been more constructive when opening your thread, but I do understand your frustration as to stuff being removed. I mean yeah the "side panel" could still have been in the game somewhere.
Honestly how could you say that the mouse is "unplayable" ?
Constantly using the mouse inflames my wrist, which makes it unplayable.
47.05 had weird UI, but at least it was consistent
There just needs to be hotkeys for stuff, I have faith that Toady will get to that eventually.
It makes me incredulous that the search bars, on almost everything, aren't autofocussed, so you have to click them each time before searching.
Seriously though, the old UI with the Steam graphics would be like, super sexy. Menu button with "Legacy UI Mode (Requires Restart)"? Yeah. I'd be on it like Sonic.
If you've taken a hiatus from the game for several years and missed everything relating to Steam and Premium, it's probably not a fun surprise to download a new version of DF Classic and suddenly find that you have to learn an entirely new UI while having missed all context for why this change was made.
After a game reaches a certain point of complexity is it even possible to create a ui the majority of players would consider good?
Constantly using the mouse inflames my wrist, which makes it unplayable.
If the mouse was inflaming wrists so much it would be such a scourge for the video game industry ...
Yes, we're a minority, but wrist and other joint problems are a reality to some people.
RSI and carpel tunnel and other inflammation or joint conditions can manifest entirely differently depending on the nature of the movement.
Yes, we're a minority, but wrist and other joint problems are a reality to some people.
Yeah, I admit I did not think of it this way, you are right sadly, and it unfortunately raises even more the fact that, definitely, not everyone can be pleased. Though the smart move would clearly have been to keep the old keybinds, I guess, I don't really know about the ins and outs of such features for the code.
To be honest when I read Grax's messages I just felt so bad about all the work that was done for such updates of the game, it's flat out degrading.I'm here, just busy.After a game reaches a certain point of complexity is it even possible to create a ui the majority of players would consider good?
Plus looking at the stats of the game clearly the new UI appealed to way more players, so yeah, is it really possible to please everyone ? Then if it's about pleasing people, the devs might aswell please the majority.
A dozen of something of specific material with one designation without manager?
And. Graphic mode eats 35-40% CPU even on pause. In background behind other windows.
My old HP notebook config, 2016:And. Graphic mode eats 35-40% CPU even on pause. In background behind other windows.
Oh right, glad you bring this up, I thought my computer was just wrong. Does this performance loss is certified to be from the UI ?
Man, when the steam version dropped an I got my hands on it, it felt like such a total disconnect from the previous versions in such a bad way. No ASCII support, totally "exploded" keyboard support in favor of everything reliant on the mouse like all of DF's derivatives. I had take a hiatus and basically forget this game existed after that useless keyboard cursor update and initial ASCII mode. There was(and still is, imo) no middle ground for a smooth transition for keyboard enjoyers. All the menus still require taking a hand off the keyboard, you can't select workstations, furniture, or creatures with the keyboard cursor. What really gets me the most is that they have TWBT features for graphics mode to separate the ui scaling from the game world scaling, but they didn't use it in ASCII mode. Even to just keep the new UI always usable with certain font widths and zoom levels? It's so weird and kinda frustrating.If you've taken a hiatus from the game for several years and missed everything relating to Steam and Premium, it's probably not a fun surprise to download a new version of DF Classic and suddenly find that you have to learn an entirely new UI while having missed all context for why this change was made.
Complaints can totally be heard and I do line up with them but to be honest I was kind of shocked to see such a thread created. I mean Grax did just create some with an insulting title, two insulting messages, just to say meanly "I do not like it", and then went away. Yeah the devs must be used to such things but this is no reason for so much hatred. Yeah it must be sad to have to learn a whole new keyboard layout and all but nothing is due to the players I guess, and being trash talked like this must not make the devs want to satisfy one's wishes anyway. To be honest when I read Grax's messages I just felt so bad about all the work that was done for such updates of the game, it's flat out degrading.After a game reaches a certain point of complexity is it even possible to create a ui the majority of players would consider good?
Plus looking at the stats of the game clearly the new UI appealed to way more players, so yeah, is it really possible to please everyone ? Then if it's about pleasing people, the devs might aswell please the majority.
All that being said, I do really hope that people having a hard time with the new ui will eventually find a middle ground with it or some kind of workaround because it's quite saddening to see people quitting the game and missing on probably so much great features in the future.
Another point that itches my mind is about "speed" : Dwarf Fortress is a single player, chill and fun game almost about losing, so what is it with going super fast and productive with the keyboard ? I mean it's not like we are playing competitive Age of Empires here. Anyway I personally really like the fact that I can take it very slow on this game and it's kind of liberating.
My old HP notebook config, 2016:
HP EliteBook 840 G3
BIOS N75 Ver. 01.44 10/31/2019
OS BUILD Win10 19041.1.amd64fre.vb_release.191206-1406
PLATFORM ROLE Mobile
8Gb, 400Mb integrated video.
Now some science. DF 50.12 almost vanilla raws and init.
JFYI: every measure i made with the same saved game, starting at the same moment, exiting without further saving by DFHck "die" command.My old HP notebook config, 2016:
HP EliteBook 840 G3
BIOS N75 Ver. 01.44 10/31/2019
OS BUILD Win10 19041.1.amd64fre.vb_release.191206-1406
PLATFORM ROLE Mobile
8Gb, 400Mb integrated video.
Now some science. DF 50.12 almost vanilla raws and init.
I have my doubts about the testing methodology. In order for it to be fair, both versions would need to be tested with very similar circumstances - embark size, world size and history apparently plays a factor. Fort size is also important, but it'd probably be easier to just test the framerates before even building a world. The resolution of both versions should also be kept the same. Also, it's obvious that the graphical version would be more hardware demanding by virtue of being graphical.
About the old vs. new UI: What this argument often comes down to is that longbeards are used to the old UI after having played it for over a decade. Keep in mind that to the average outsider, the old UI is horrifying.It's not just controls. What finally maddened me is stupid kind of sorting things in stocks.
Of course, it's no problem to me if you prefer the old or new UI, but just ask yourself if the reason you prefer the old one is because you have an argument for why it's better, or if you're just used to it. (Or if some things are missing, which, to be fair, a lot of things are missing, so we should still give them time to catch up. Had to wait for things like adventure mode to be re-released, after all.)Old keyboard UI is much faster. You just press a key and voila, you got what you want.
It's just sad for those older fans like us that get left behind.World is ruled by money.
if anyone has a tip about playing the old controls without a numpad it would be much appreciated !
AND THESE F*CKINGLY ORGANIZED STOCKS.To be fair, v0.47, also showed all prepared meals as "prepared meals [х]" until you hit Tab, which was stupid too. If you must click on each one separately now it's indeed a bad change, but meals specifically were always like that.
I'm even not speaking of scrolling speed, it's everywhere only with mouse wheel or clicks.
Have to press EVERY KIND OF MATERIAL just to see how many of it is.
And any containers like barrels/bags/bins/etc.
But the most UNDESCRIBABLE STUPID Prepared meals are shown.
[WINDOWEDX:96] 1920
[WINDOWEDY:49] 990
[FONT:rose20.png]
You may disable window resizing if you wish.
[RESIZABLE:YES] NO
Full screen info. The 0s below mean that the game will choose a resolution for you, but you can set it yourself as well.
[FULLSCREENX:0] 1920
[FULLSCREENY:0] 1080
[FULLFONT:zara16.png]
If this is set to NO, tiles will be stretched to fit the screen if there is a resolution mismatch.
If this is set to YES, the tiles will not be stretched, but rather the game view will be centralized, surrounded by black space. Tiles that are too large will always be compressed rather than running off the screen.
[BLACK_SPACE:YES] NO
[GRAPHICS:YES] NO
[GRAPHICS_WINDOWEDX:1920] 96
[GRAPHICS_WINDOWEDY:990] 49
[GRAPHICS_FONT:rose20.png]
[GRAPHICS_FULLSCREENX:1920] 96
[GRAPHICS_FULLSCREENY:1080] 54
[GRAPHICS_FULLFONT:zara16.png]
[GRAPHICS_BLACK_SPACE:YES] NO
Yes, the brothers' need for money is totally legit and I can't blame them for needing a larger pool of buyers.
It's just sad for those older fans like us that get left behind.
World is ruled by money.
...
I just can't follow him there to 50+. Ingrained habit certainly is part of that, but not all of it. The Steam UI is not all that great in a positive sense, even without comparing it to legacy. It is mouse capable, so mission accomplished, but its not elegant mouse capable, for reasons already pointed out.The main problem of Toady - he's outstanding coder, but awful UI designer.
the game itself is actually incredibly difficult to build ui for.
Though personally I prefer the old style of ui being fire and forget, because it means a faster turnaround time for other features.
if anyone has a tip about playing the old controls without a numpad it would be much appreciated !
If you have arrow keys, those work. You just won't be able to use diagonals, which doesn't matter so much in Fort Mode.
(Or if you want to torture yourself, you can use number keys instead of a numpad. I actually did this for quite long with my old laptop before I finally went and got an external keyboard.)
The number keys (1, 3, 7, and 9) above the letters, actually work for diagonal movement too, not just the numpad. A bit weirder than using a numpad, but you CAN move diagonally.
...I fought the habits I created in my own mind and body, and won! My past self was a weakling... Swagger swagger swagger, all day long...
And you eventually get used to it and ingrained in your muscle memory. Then there is no need for a numpad and you laugh at weaklings who use one.