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[Worlder]

Constantly using the mouse inflames my wrist, which makes it unplayable.

If the mouse was inflaming wrists so much it would be such a scourge for the video game industry ...

47.05 had weird UI, but at least it was consistent

There just needs to be hotkeys for stuff, I have faith that Toady will get to that eventually.

It makes me incredulous that the search bars, on almost everything, aren't autofocussed, so you have to click them each time before searching.

Seriously though, the old UI with the Steam graphics would be like, super sexy. Menu button with "Legacy UI Mode (Requires Restart)"? Yeah. I'd be on it like Sonic.

But yeah, going back on features that work is quite unsatisfying and nice good old keybinds would please so much people I guess.
I also agree about the non autofocus search bar, it makes it so tedious going from clicking to typing that it just loses part of the convenience purpose it had so well nailed in the old ui.
The lack of consistency sounds right to me aswell. I did find myself failing maneuvers because of this. Hopefully this looks typically like the kind of things that gets patched steadily anyway.

If you've taken a hiatus from the game for several years and missed everything relating to Steam and Premium, it's probably not a fun surprise to download a new version of DF Classic and suddenly find that you have to learn an entirely new UI while having missed all context for why this change was made.

Complaints can totally be heard and I do line up with them but to be honest I was kind of shocked to see such a thread created. I mean Grax did just create some with an insulting title, two insulting messages, just to say meanly "I do not like it", and then went away. Yeah the devs must be used to such things but this is no reason for so much hatred. Yeah it must be sad to have to learn a whole new keyboard layout and all but nothing is due to the players I guess, and being trash talked like this must not make the devs want to satisfy one's wishes anyway. To be honest when I read Grax's messages I just felt so bad about all the work that was done for such updates of the game, it's flat out degrading.

After a game reaches a certain point of complexity is it even possible to create a ui the majority of players would consider good?

Plus looking at the stats of the game clearly the new UI appealed to way more players, so yeah, is it really possible to please everyone ? Then if it's about pleasing people, the devs might aswell please the majority.

All that being said, I do really hope that people having a hard time with the new ui will eventually find a middle ground with it or some kind of workaround because it's quite saddening to see people quitting the game and missing on probably so much great features in the future.

Another point that itches my mind is about "speed" : Dwarf Fortress is a single player, chill and fun game almost about losing, so what is it with going super fast and productive with the keyboard ? I mean it's not like we are playing competitive Age of Empires here. Anyway I personally really like the fact that I can take it very slow on this game and it's kind of liberating.

[brewer bob]

Constantly using the mouse inflames my wrist, which makes it unplayable.

If the mouse was inflaming wrists so much it would be such a scourge for the video game industry ...

Well, some of us don't really play many games because of mouse use inflaming wrists. DF was one of the few newer games that didn't have this issue. Yes, we're a minority, but wrist and other joint problems are a reality to some people.

Adding mouse support was great, but making a game that used to be completely keyboard controllable for years into one requiring mouse use was a weird design choice (to put it mildly). I completely understand the gut reaction it caused. (Also the language used in the title and op aren't nearly as bad as what has been leveled at the old UI, but that's of course not an excuse to do so.)

[ivanzypher]

RSI and carpel tunnel and other inflammation or joint conditions can manifest entirely differently depending on the nature of the movement. I'd just like to add that. For example, one person who wildly moves and clicks at 250APM in League of Legends. This is mostly noise. Random mouse-based brownian motion, if you will. They may be able to do that for hours, but clicking stockpile button, clicking stockpile, clicking repaint stockpile, clicking remove area from stockpile, ask them to do that 10 times an hour, along with other repetitive movements, that can trigger nausea-inducing cramps and pain much more easily.

I'm sure similar cases are present with Paradox games, the Anno series, and so on. They perhaps aren't quite as intense (they are intense of course, when playing them, but in terms of the density of the movement and the clicks) as our game here.

[Worlder]

Yes, we're a minority, but wrist and other joint problems are a reality to some people.

Yeah, I admit I did not think of it this way, you are right sadly, and it unfortunately raises even more the fact that, definitely, not everyone can be pleased. Though the smart move would clearly have been to keep the old keybinds, I guess, I don't really know about the ins and outs of such features for the code.

RSI and carpel tunnel and other inflammation or joint conditions can manifest entirely differently depending on the nature of the movement.

Now that you mention it, Dwarf Fortress tends to give me unusual sorenesses compared to other games. But the mouse still is very cool, so yeah, the middle ground mouse + keybind is of course the most relevant.

[brewer bob]

Yes, we're a minority, but wrist and other joint problems are a reality to some people.

Yeah, I admit I did not think of it this way, you are right sadly, and it unfortunately raises even more the fact that, definitely, not everyone can be pleased. Though the smart move would clearly have been to keep the old keybinds, I guess, I don't really know about the ins and outs of such features for the code.

Fortunately the new Adventure mode has kept old keybinds (thank you Toady!), though you still need the mouse to navigate menus (probably this is just a beta issue?). But we'll eventually get full keyboard control back in Fort mode too. That'll solve many issues some of us have, but it'll take time before we're there.

There's not been so much actual new content in the game since the Steam release, and many (minor) old things are still missing, so I'm not really feeling I'm missing out on anything by keeping on playing 0.47 for now (and enjoying 'umkh' while I still can!). This'll probably change when the planned new content for Adventure mode is out, though.

[Grax]

To be honest when I read Grax's messages I just felt so bad about all the work that was done for such updates of the game, it's flat out degrading.

After a game reaches a certain point of complexity is it even possible to create a ui the majority of players would consider good?

Plus looking at the stats of the game clearly the new UI appealed to way more players, so yeah, is it really possible to please everyone ? Then if it's about pleasing people, the devs might aswell please the majority.

I'm here, just busy.

Have you already tried to make a shower?

Or bridge traps?

Differently colored levers?

A dozen of something of specific material with one designation without manager?

The only thing i've found usable and comfortable so far is stockpiles that can be not just rectangle.

[Grax]

And. Graphic mode eats 35-40% CPU even on pause. In background behind other windows.

[Worlder]

A dozen of something of specific material with one designation without manager?

Yeah I agree with you, most of the things you mention are very tedious. I would say I am optimistic and think this could be easily and quickly fixed.

And. Graphic mode eats 35-40% CPU even on pause. In background behind other windows.

Oh right, glad you bring this up, I thought my computer was just wrong. Does this performance loss is certified to be from the UI ?

[Grax]

And. Graphic mode eats 35-40% CPU even on pause. In background behind other windows.

Oh right, glad you bring this up, I thought my computer was just wrong. Does this performance loss is certified to be from the UI ?

My old HP notebook config, 2016:
HP EliteBook 840 G3
BIOS   N75 Ver. 01.44 10/31/2019
OS BUILD   Win10 19041.1.amd64fre.vb_release.191206-1406
PLATFORM ROLE   Mobile
8Gb, 400Mb integrated video.

Now some science. DF 50.12 almost vanilla raws and init.

[FPS_CAP:100]
[G_FPS_CAP:100]

[TEMPERATURE:YES]
[WEATHER:YES]
[CAVEINS:YES]

1) ASCII with DFHack (exe size 21.490.176 bytes) ~12%CPU, 60%GPU - in main menu.
2) ASCII with DFHack (exe size 21.490.176 bytes) ~30%CPU, 85%GPU - in game on pause.
3) ASCII with DFHack (exe size 21.490.176 bytes) ~38-40%CPU, 85%GPU - in running game.

4) Graphic with ASCII interface with DFHack (exe size 21.516.288 bytes) ~10-15%CPU, 50-60%GPU - in main menu.
5) Graphic with ASCII interface with DFHack (exe size 21.516.288 bytes) ~35%CPU, 70-80%GPU - in game on pause.
6) Graphic with ASCII interface with DFHack (exe size 21.516.288 bytes) ~43%CPU, 67%GPU - in running game.

7) Graphic with GRAPHIC interface with DFHack (exe size 21.516.288 bytes) ~15%CPU, 65%GPU - in main menu.
Graphic with GRAPHIC interface with DFHack (exe size 21.516.288 bytes) ~38%CPU, 60-70%GPU - in game on pause.
9) Graphic with GRAPHIC interface with DFHack (exe size 21.516.288 bytes) ~45-49%CPU, 65-70%GPU - in running game.

Won't test without DFHack, `cause i'm lazy and won't play without it. ;-)

[Fallingferret]

If you've taken a hiatus from the game for several years and missed everything relating to Steam and Premium, it's probably not a fun surprise to download a new version of DF Classic and suddenly find that you have to learn an entirely new UI while having missed all context for why this change was made.

Complaints can totally be heard and I do line up with them but to be honest I was kind of shocked to see such a thread created. I mean Grax did just create some with an insulting title, two insulting messages, just to say meanly "I do not like it", and then went away. Yeah the devs must be used to such things but this is no reason for so much hatred. Yeah it must be sad to have to learn a whole new keyboard layout and all but nothing is due to the players I guess, and being trash talked like this must not make the devs want to satisfy one's wishes anyway. To be honest when I read Grax's messages I just felt so bad about all the work that was done for such updates of the game, it's flat out degrading.

After a game reaches a certain point of complexity is it even possible to create a ui the majority of players would consider good?

Plus looking at the stats of the game clearly the new UI appealed to way more players, so yeah, is it really possible to please everyone ? Then if it's about pleasing people, the devs might aswell please the majority.

All that being said, I do really hope that people having a hard time with the new ui will eventually find a middle ground with it or some kind of workaround because it's quite saddening to see people quitting the game and missing on probably so much great features in the future.

Another point that itches my mind is about "speed" : Dwarf Fortress is a single player, chill and fun game almost about losing, so what is it with going super fast and productive with the keyboard ? I mean it's not like we are playing competitive Age of Empires here. Anyway I personally really like the fact that I can take it very slow on this game and it's kind of liberating.

Man, when the steam version dropped an I got my hands on it, it felt like such a total disconnect from the previous versions in such a bad way. No ASCII support, totally "exploded" keyboard support in favor of everything reliant on the mouse like all of DF's derivatives. I had take a hiatus and basically forget this game existed after that useless keyboard cursor update and initial ASCII mode. There was(and still is, imo) no middle ground for a smooth transition for keyboard enjoyers. All the menus still require taking a hand off the keyboard, you can't select workstations, furniture, or creatures with the keyboard cursor. What really gets me the most is that they have TWBT features for graphics mode to separate the ui scaling from the game world scaling, but they didn't use it in ASCII mode. Even to just keep the new UI always usable with certain font widths and zoom levels? It's so weird and kinda frustrating.

I've since forced myself to sit down and relearn the whole UI/UX, and have come around to it, mostly, but it's such a mixed bag in ascii that it comes off as an afterthought. Commenting on the "speed" aspect; Order 7 beds without using the manager in v50 and in v47. Dismantle 24 constructed chairs and tables. It's is so much more tedious and slow now. Rearranging large dining/tavern rooms is especially grating unless I'm missing something.

Even with the adventure mode beta retaining nearly all of the legacy keyboard support, it still requires you to take a hand off the keyboard and use the mouse at times. Considering Fort mode's UX state I almost expect those instances to stay that way, because mouse users are the biggest demographic. reeeeeeeeeee

[Grax]

AND THESE F*CKINGLY ORGANIZED STOCKS.

I'm even not speaking of scrolling speed, it's everywhere only with mouse wheel or clicks.

Have to press EVERY KIND OF MATERIAL just to see how many of it is.
And any containers like barrels/bags/bins/etc.

But the most UNDESCRIBABLE STUPID Prepared meals are shown.





I'm really tried hard to get used to new interface. Really.
But NO WAY. Fck this new xbox 50.12.
I'm going back to 47.05.

[Brancliff]

My old HP notebook config, 2016:
HP EliteBook 840 G3
BIOS   N75 Ver. 01.44 10/31/2019
OS BUILD   Win10 19041.1.amd64fre.vb_release.191206-1406
PLATFORM ROLE   Mobile
8Gb, 400Mb integrated video.

Now some science. DF 50.12 almost vanilla raws and init.

I have my doubts about the testing methodology. In order for it to be fair, both versions would need to be tested with very similar circumstances - embark size, world size and history apparently plays a factor. Fort size is also important, but it'd probably be easier to just test the framerates before even building a world. The resolution of both versions should also be kept the same. Also, it's obvious that the graphical version would be more hardware demanding by virtue of being graphical.

About the old vs. new UI: What this argument often comes down to is that longbeards are used to the old UI after having played it for over a decade. Keep in mind that to the average outsider, the old UI is horrifying. People see just figuring out the controls as a daunting challenge that is too difficult to overcome. Before they even figure out what they're looking at, or how to take care of their dwarves, or design a fortress, or start a military, it takes a guide JUST to learn the controls. And that's already with the consideration that said UI takes up a third of the screen just to list what every button does (many of which are case-sensitive). In this day and age where everything is already vying for your attention span, that's unacceptable. Show the old version and new version to someone who's completely new to both without any explanation and ask people which they think is more clear.

Of course, it's no problem to me if you prefer the old or new UI, but just ask yourself if the reason you prefer the old one is because you have an argument for why it's better, or if you're just used to it. (Or if some things are missing, which, to be fair, a lot of things are missing, so we should still give them time to catch up. Had to wait for things like adventure mode to be re-released, after all.)

[Uthimienure]

I was an outsider.  Then I took a little time and learned the old UI.  It wasn't such a big task.

To anyone that knows a keyboard, keyboard controls are faster than mouse controls.
When you have to use BOTH, the speed drops even more.

That's a simple argument for why the old is better.

It's a shame to say it, but like many great new music bands, great things like DF eventually are overcome by the need/desire for money.
Yes, the brothers' need for money is totally legit and I can't blame them for needing a larger pool of buyers.
It's just sad for those older fans like us that get left behind.

[Grax]

My old HP notebook config, 2016:
HP EliteBook 840 G3
BIOS   N75 Ver. 01.44 10/31/2019
OS BUILD   Win10 19041.1.amd64fre.vb_release.191206-1406
PLATFORM ROLE   Mobile
8Gb, 400Mb integrated video.

Now some science. DF 50.12 almost vanilla raws and init.

I have my doubts about the testing methodology. In order for it to be fair, both versions would need to be tested with very similar circumstances - embark size, world size and history apparently plays a factor. Fort size is also important, but it'd probably be easier to just test the framerates before even building a world. The resolution of both versions should also be kept the same. Also, it's obvious that the graphical version would be more hardware demanding by virtue of being graphical.

JFYI: every measure i made with the same saved game, starting at the same moment, exiting without further saving by DFHck "die" command.

About the old vs. new UI: What this argument often comes down to is that longbeards are used to the old UI after having played it for over a decade. Keep in mind that to the average outsider, the old UI is horrifying.

It's not just controls. What finally maddened me is stupid kind of sorting things in stocks.
I can't even imagine more inconvenient thing.

Of course, it's no problem to me if you prefer the old or new UI, but just ask yourself if the reason you prefer the old one is because you have an argument for why it's better, or if you're just used to it. (Or if some things are missing, which, to be fair, a lot of things are missing, so we should still give them time to catch up. Had to wait for things like adventure mode to be re-released, after all.)

Old keyboard UI is much faster. You just press a key and voila, you got what you want.
New UI eat more time to take the mouse, point and click the thing (magnifying glass for example) to get the result.

[Grax]

It's just sad for those older fans like us that get left behind.

World is ruled by money.

I know many games that are gone in under-developed state (like beta) when author get enough money or get bored of development.