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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 763697 times)

i2amroy

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10320 on: December 12, 2012, 12:55:44 pm »

This is why we need to create an immortal hyper intelligent perfectly moral AI to be our absolute leader. What could possibly go wrong?
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10321 on: December 12, 2012, 01:00:24 pm »

It would (to some degree) make sure that fundies had no chance of gaining influence.

No, it would insure that within 15 years they would have an enormous deal of influence.  Look at the Senate right now where fundies are more important then climate change advocates.  In any political system you will see factions and an alliance between social conservatives and oligarchs has sprung up in every society that has such people and has politics.  In pre green revolution Egypt the political system was driven underground but it took a matter of weeks for this political faction to spring up once the military forced the president out.  We see it in diverse political systems, the US, China, Russia. The existence of such a political faction is inevitable.  By concentrating power into the hands of an elite you just make it so the alliance of social conservatives and oligarchs becomes more entrenched in power once they win the sympathies of people in power.  And that would happen very, very quickly given our current body public.  15 years might be a conservative estimate.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10322 on: December 12, 2012, 01:10:18 pm »

Worth noting that Alexander Hamilton argued at length in favor of an elective monarchy (calling the position "Governor") in 1787. State power was to be eroded, the lower house would be popularly elected and serve 3-year terms, the upper house would be elected by the same electors who chose the Governor (who were in turn popularly elected...sort of an Electoral College system) and serve for life.

And the Federal government had the power to veto any state legislation.


People agreed it was a good plan, but a bit too close to the way Britain was organized and after the Articles of Confederation, the states weren't likely to agree to such a sweeping cession of power to the Federal.
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Owlbread

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10323 on: December 12, 2012, 01:26:37 pm »

Once autonomy is given out it is virtually impossible to take away without great difficulty.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10324 on: December 12, 2012, 01:28:40 pm »

Worth noting that Alexander Hamilton argued at length in favor of an elective monarchy (calling the position "Governor") in 1787. State power was to be eroded, the lower house would be popularly elected and serve 3-year terms, the upper house would be elected by the same electors who chose the Governor (who were in turn popularly elected...sort of an Electoral College system) and serve for life.

And the Federal government had the power to veto any state legislation.


People agreed it was a good plan, but a bit too close to the way Britain was organized and after the Articles of Confederation, the states weren't likely to agree to such a sweeping cession of power to the Federal.

IIRC George Washington was offered the title of King or Emperor following the War of Independance and turned it down. Not unlike the Roman legend of Cincinatus.

Mephansteras

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10325 on: December 12, 2012, 01:43:26 pm »

Personally, I think one of the big problems in American politics is the fact that the majority of politicians are lawyers. Lawyers, to a large degree, go into that line of work because of the money and not for any ideals about helping the world. It is also a profession built around selling your version of the truth in order to get a favorable verdict from the system. They also tend to be a very competitive lot.

Hence to main problem, which is that our politicians are predominantly wealthy scum bags who care more about appearance and winning than they do actually helping the country out in any meaningful way.

I wonder how much of the problem is the people going into the system instead of the system itself?

Would it be possible to get some educational system in place that specifically trains political leaders? They'd still need to understand law, of course, but from the standpoint of writing it rather than abusing it. You could then have the system set up to help them get jobs in government. Starting at the local level, but then they can of course move on up as normal.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10326 on: December 12, 2012, 01:50:48 pm »

A law degree is a perquisite to practice law.  Believe it or not most law isn't about selling your soul to the highest bidder.  Mostly it's about mundanely making sure things are done according to the arcane rules laid out.

But more fundementally, someone who is interested in politics would naturally be inclined to get a law degree.  They both require driven people with an interest in law.  It's not surprising there are a lot of lawyers in congress.

Barrack Obama I might remind you is a lawyer, a Harvard one at that.  Mitt Romney is another Harvard law graduate.  Do you honestly think that they disagreed on so many issues because they were paid to do so?  No, they got into politics because they cared about stuff and they got law degrees because it helped them do what they cared about.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10327 on: December 12, 2012, 01:55:03 pm »

Problem being those people you're talking about training wouldn't be politicians, they'd be bureaucrats. There are programs like that (my wife has a Master's in Public Administration, which covers a lot of what you're aiming at), but in the end those people would still have to run for office and be voted in by a majority to become politicians.

You put them up (armed with honesty and graphs and an idea of how government works) against a firebreathing demagogue who just pulls "facts" out of their ass and promises the impossible....I think you can see who's likely to win.
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Darvi

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10328 on: December 12, 2012, 02:26:30 pm »

Soooo... Truean2016?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10329 on: December 12, 2012, 02:29:39 pm »

Worth noting that Alexander Hamilton argued at length in favor of an elective monarchy (calling the position "Governor") in 1787. State power was to be eroded, the lower house would be popularly elected and serve 3-year terms, the upper house would be elected by the same electors who chose the Governor (who were in turn popularly elected...sort of an Electoral College system) and serve for life.

And the Federal government had the power to veto any state legislation.


People agreed it was a good plan, but a bit too close to the way Britain was organized and after the Articles of Confederation, the states weren't likely to agree to such a sweeping cession of power to the Federal.

IIRC George Washington was offered the title of King or Emperor following the War of Independance and turned it down. Not unlike the Roman legend of Cincinatus.
That would be the Newburgh Conspiracy, in which Washington delivered the Newburgh Address:
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Soooo... Truean2016?
I don't think she's old enough. You have to be 35 to be President. Besides, Truean would be far better off as Chief Justice.
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Dutchling

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10330 on: December 12, 2012, 02:35:26 pm »

Soooo... Truean2016?
I don't think she's old enough. You have to be 35 to be President. Besides, Truean would be far better off as Chief Justice Hammerer.
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PTTG??

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10331 on: December 12, 2012, 02:55:13 pm »

Let us consider a few different kinds of minds as legislators- that is, those who make the laws.

Lawyer: The technician of law. They first of all are most highly skilled in the current practice of law, the vocabulary of law, and, by thier very nature the most skilled in circumventing its intention. Much like how a computer programmer is probably better at hacking than anyone else in the room.

Author: Skilled in words, yes. Perhaps this means they will write clear laws, with meaning that is well-understood by all. However, a skilled lawyer will no doubt have the power to reinterpret this creatively. And a writer will most likely not be skilled in the existing practice of law, which eventually lead to contradictions with previous laws.

Engineer: Anyone who is skilled in the design of systems; for the purposes of law, I would consider a software engineer the same as an electrical one, or archetectual. If you found such a mind and taught it law, then you might get something pretty useful for legislation. You would, most likely, end up with a lawyer.

I feel that Lawyers make superior lawmakers, because they are the ones most skilled at defeating lawyers. A flaw with a lawyer-dominated government is that it creates a system of laws not open to negotiation or interpretation, especially once precident has been established. This is not a bad thing, so long as the laws are just; but if the lawmaking process is corrupted, which frankly is easier when naive lawmakers are in office, then iron-clad and evil laws will be made, a most negative turn of events.

I think that what we dislike of Lawyers as legislators is not their inherent lawyerness, but instead the inherent Legislationess.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10332 on: December 12, 2012, 03:30:53 pm »

If I might borrow DF as an analogy for a minute...

I think the problem is that once a framework of law is created, no matter how noble the purpose, there will exist people who study that framework for the sheer purpose of exploiting it for profit (and occasionaly for lulz). Law hackers, if you will.

Toady created mermaids just because they're a mythical creature and he was trying to spruce up the sea life a bit. Because they were so rare, he set the material value for them quite high. Before long....well, you know the story.

Lawmakers will make a law that seems to serve a good purpose, and then a lawyer comes along and finds a way to follow the letter of the law but utterly pervert the intention of it. That's why people don't like lawyers. And yes, the vast majority of lawyers don't do this, and many even attempt to find a legal remedy to thwart the perversion. But that's not what's going to stick out in the public mind, the same way that a few high-profile upper forum threads have helped to create a reputation for all DF players that is somewhat...disturbing.
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Moghjubar

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10333 on: December 12, 2012, 03:38:26 pm »

Soooo... Truean2016?
I don't think she's old enough. You have to be 35 to be President. Besides, Truean would be far better off as Chief Justice Hammerer.

So... why have we not made a Dwarf party yet and started 'improving' politics?
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10334 on: December 12, 2012, 03:54:38 pm »

If I might borrow DF as an analogy for a minute...

I think the problem is that once a framework of law is created, no matter how noble the purpose, there will exist people who study that framework for the sheer purpose of exploiting it for profit (and occasionaly for lulz). Law hackers, if you will.

Toady created mermaids just because they're a mythical creature and he was trying to spruce up the sea life a bit. Because they were so rare, he set the material value for them quite high. Before long....well, you know the story.

Lawmakers will make a law that seems to serve a good purpose, and then a lawyer comes along and finds a way to follow the letter of the law but utterly pervert the intention of it. That's why people don't like lawyers. And yes, the vast majority of lawyers don't do this, and many even attempt to find a legal remedy to thwart the perversion. But that's not what's going to stick out in the public mind, the same way that a few high-profile upper forum threads have helped to create a reputation for all DF players that is somewhat...disturbing.

My uncle is a lawyer over in China.  He has decades of experience with the American legal system and nearly a decade doing large commercial real estate deals in China.  He told me that his job in China is very easy.  His job is to come up with a legal pretext that sounds vaguely plausible.  It doesn't matter about precedent or other trivia because the case wont be decided on its merits.  The party officials intentionally write the laws to be vague so they can decide whichever way they want.  Other people are in charge of making sure the judges rule the right way.

I feel that a system that allows for loopholes is vastly preferable to a vague one.  Loopholes can be corrected through judicial discretion, appeals and amendments to the code.  But when a law is vague the entire thing is one big loophole.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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