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[RedKing]

I know this has come up before, but I'm of mixed feelings about the Bradley thing. His heart might have been in the right place, but that was an incredibly dumb thing to do. And you cannot just let a breach of that magnitude go unpunished *or* set a precedent for others to follow.

C'mon Nadaka, you've got a clearance, you know how big of a deal that is. You can't just let someone with TS clearance pull a huge, indiscriminate data dump and get away with it. If it had been a handful of documents specifically relating to some abuse, that's one thing. Just grabbing everything you can find and uploading it to Wikileaks? That borders on treason, regardless of his intent.

Obama would have been crucified for pardoning Manning.

Oh hey! Remember that asinine bill that the North Carolina legislature made that would forbid state planners from using !!SCIENCE!! to project rising sea levels??

Well, the bill is no more. IT'S A LAW NOW, BABY!

Does this mean they can use baseless conjecture instead?

Actually, it means they're using historical record. Which is brilliant. As Stephen Colbert put it, "Those beancounter actuaries at the insurance company project that I'm going to die sometime in the next 50 years. However, if we only consider historical data, I've been alive my entire life. Therefore, I always will be."

One of my friends came up with a great label for this: North Canutelina.

[scriver]

In this, I am on Nadaka's side. What use is freedom of speech and of press if you can't use them for the one thing they were supposed to let you do; criticising the government?

[RedKing]

In the same way that utilizing freedom of speech to shout FIRE in a crowded theater is illegal and irresponsible, breaking a security trust and divulging classified information indiscriminately is NOT the right way to use those rights.

I'm not against whistleblowers. I'm against whistleblowers burning down the house to show that there need to be some safety improvements.

[Nadaka]

I do know how big a deal it is.

Arrest him? Yes.
Dishonorably discharge? yes
Fines? ok
Prison time? maybe some.
Indefinite unlawful imprisonment and torture? HELL NO!

There is still no legal and moral justification for holding and torturing him for years without trial.
He should never have been treated the way he has been. Had he received justice already, a pardon would not be called for.

[RedKing]

No disagreement there. That said, malfeasance on the part of the military in its detention and treatment of him does not constitute grounds for a pardon, IMHO.

[palsch]

As for what grounds? The unlawful imprisonment and  torture of a US citizen.

This is reason to prosecute those responsible for his detention and cause for lenience in sentencing, not for pardoning him before his trial has even fully started. If he were to receive an excessive sentence and either fail or be denied appeal, then a pardon may be justified.
EDIT: Thinking about this, I'm not sure a full pardon is right. Some form of clemency or commutation of the sentence may be more suited, such as reducing a custodial sentence in light of his previous treatment.

I'd also make certain that any evidence gained through that treatment be suppressed, although that's largely irrelevant here.

Going back to my example above of a murder suspect abused by police, such mistreatment can't always override guilt. I do think taking it into consideration when prescribing punishment makes sense, although I still feel a little uncomfortable treating it as an actual part of the punishment rather than mitigating circumstances.

For an extreme version, take the KSM case. He was waterboarded and held in far more degrading and abusive conditions than Manning. The things done to him during his early detention should never be part of the US's legal apparatus. We should never treat it as part of his punishment and should, frankly, find a way to prosecute those that put him through it. We should also not let it stop us prosecuting him to the fullest and fairest extent of the law, preferably ending with assigning him three thousand life sentences.


And just for the record, if I were the judge in his case? I'd go for a discoverable discharge, time served, maybe a two-five year sentence based on what he was actually found guilty of, full medical expense coverage for life on the taxpayer dime and relocation to anywhere in the US or UK (he has the option of UK citizenship) he chooses.

[Nadaka]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/retired-porn-star-jenna-jameson-says-she-supports-143703925.html

"I'm very looking forward to a Republican being back in office," Jameson said while sipping champagne in a VIP room at Gold Club in the city's South of Market neighborhood. "When you're rich, you want a Republican in office."

[darkrider2]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/retired-porn-star-jenna-jameson-says-she-supports-143703925.html

"I'm very looking forward to a Republican being back in office," Jameson said while sipping champagne in a VIP room at Gold Club in the city's South of Market neighborhood. "When you're rich, you want a Republican in office."

Exactly the kind of people you want supporting your average family values republican.

[RedKing]

Oh, the bumper stickers this could make...

BOOBS FOR BOOBS

TITS FOR MITT

"Jenna Jameson: Putting the "magic" in Romney's magic underwear."


EDIT: I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense outside the whole personal wealth angle as well....when Republicans repress sexuality in society, more and more people will turn to porn as an outlet.

[Kogan Loloklam]

I love those responces, apologizing for Obama's failures.

There may be many things Obama cannot do, but those things on the list I provided are things he can easily do, if he cared to.
Fear is never justification for not doing the right thing, even if it is fear of political fallout.

As for Manning, we have laws specifically designed to protect whistleblowers. The wikileak leaks were leaks stemming from violations of the constitution or laws of the USA. If he broke the law in revealing this, the law is at fault for concealing the wrongdoing.
Pardoning doesn't need a reason, but in this case it would have one.

I love the crowded theater anology too. You yell fire in a theater that's on fire and off to jail!
It may not be what you meant, but it was an accurate portrayal of what Manning did.

[Eagle_eye]

As I recall, the info included plans/troop movements in afghanistan and iraq. Releasing that publicly is incredibly dangerous, and probably resulted in plenty of people dying who didn't have to. I'm all for revealing illegal government practices, but what he did goes far beyond that.

[Nadaka]

As I recall, the info included plans/troop movements in afghanistan and iraq. Releasing that publicly is incredibly dangerous, and probably resulted in plenty of people dying who didn't have to. I'm all for revealing illegal government practices, but what he did goes far beyond that.

There were no deaths as a result of the release. Not even when the new media published the crypto key to the whole archive.

Unless of course you count Gaddafi and the other deaths that resulted from the Arab spring that was sparked by revelations of corruption and decadence by the leadership of Tunisia.

What he did goes beyond exposing illegal government practices, that is why I am not saying he should have a medal pinned on his chest and celebrated as a hero. It still does not in any way justify the unjust way he has been unlawfully imprisoned without trial and tortured.

[palsch]

As for Manning, we have laws specifically designed to protect whistleblowers. The wikileak leaks were leaks stemming from violations of the constitution or laws of the USA. If he broke the law in revealing this, the law is at fault for concealing the wrongdoing.

He released at least 251,287 State Department cables. Cables that didn't reveal any illegal activity that I'm aware of. Cables that there was no way for him to screen and select from to make such a case even if there was one to be made. I believe the total charges against him involve close to 750,000 files.

That isn't whistle blowing. Even if a few of the files showed illegal activity or were otherwise defensible as whistle blowing (the Collateral Murder video being the only case I can think of, and that one isn't watertight) that isn't a defence for the scale or method of the leak.

[SalmonGod]

Obama would have been crucified for pardoning Manning.

While I'm sure this is true, there are plenty of people who feel the opposite.  I don't think what he did was so irresponsible.  He could have been more selective about what he leaked, but according to Lamo's chat logs his goal was to spark deep and widespread discussion, not to shed light on specific cases of abuse.  Plus, I'm sure he knew his actions were placing him in danger, and he didn't have all the time in the world to agonize over the details and ensure that he gathered only information that was both juicy and safe at the same time.  This is why he turned the information over to journalists, after all, instead of just dumping it somewhere on the internet himself.  Plenty of time has passed, and there's been tons of independent and government analysis concluding that nobody has been harmed as a result of his actions, nor is anyone likely to be.  On the other hand, it's almost undeniable that he's played a large part in sparking a wave of uprisings against tyrannical establishments in a region where fighting tyranny and spreading democracy has been the supposed goal of the U.S. for decades.  It wouldn't be a stretch to presume that military authorities are either ashamed of being overshadowed by his accomplishments or upset because they never actually wanted freedom for people in the Middle East.

Regardless of the justifications and motivations behind his treatment, it is completely repugnant to me, and instills me with just as much hatred and distrust of authority as the "Collateral Murder" video.  No action has been taken against anyone responsible for the abuses he exposed, yet he gets the full wrath of the establishment.

Finally, bringing this back to the original subject of Obama's character, I've pointed out before how he handled the subject when confronted face-to-face to ask why Daniel Ellsberg is regarded as a national hero, while Manning gets tortured.  Obama's only response was essentially "The information Manning leaked was more classified than the information leaked by Ellsberg", which was a flagrant lie.  The information Ellsberg went through extreme measures to obtain and leak was very highly classified, while IIRC correctly Manning obtained most of his information from SIPRNet, which is accessible by about half a million people...

[RedKing]

The correct response is that Ellsberg leaked a relatively narrow set of information directly related to extrajudicial actvities being conducted by the Pentagon. Manning just threw a bunch of shit at the wall and hoped something stuck out.

The information Ellsberg went through extreme measures to obtain and leak was very highly classified, while IIRC correctly Manning obtained most of his information from SIPRNet, which is accessible by about half a million people...

Half a million people with security clearances.

We're not going to get anywhere arguing about this. You're free to see him as a hero if you like. Just as I'm free to see him as a dumb kid who's going to be made an example of, to deter any more dumb kids in the future who even think of pulling a stunt like that. He's honestly lucky he wasn't ramrodded through a courts-martial and put in front of a firing squad.