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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 763861 times)

Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3120 on: April 18, 2012, 03:34:23 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/secret-looking-ted-nugent-violent-anti-obama-message-225142639.html

So... Threatening the president? inciting criminal acts? conspiracy?
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Fenrir

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3121 on: April 18, 2012, 03:44:29 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/secret-looking-ted-nugent-violent-anti-obama-message-225142639.html

So... Threatening the president? inciting criminal acts? conspiracy?
None, I would guess. He used a violent metaphor, but I doubt it was meant as an explict instruction.

I wish he had cited his sources, as I would like to know how many of our soliders have had their legs blown off “for the Constitution”.
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Sowelu

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3122 on: April 18, 2012, 03:53:07 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/secret-looking-ted-nugent-violent-anti-obama-message-225142639.html

So... Threatening the president? inciting criminal acts? conspiracy?
None, I would guess. He used a violent metaphor, but I doubt it was meant as an explict instruction.

I wish he had cited his sources, as I would like to know how many of our soliders have had their legs blown off “for the Constitution”.

Saying "I'll tell you this right now: If Barack Obama becomes the president in November, again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year" is not a metaphor.
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Lord Dullard

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3123 on: April 18, 2012, 03:54:35 pm »

Hopefully the mayor of Indonesia is a fair man (or woman). As a suburb of the great city of Indonesia, America may be in serious trouble if we have to compete with other school districts for the favor of the city government.
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Shinotsa

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3124 on: April 18, 2012, 03:56:26 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/secret-looking-ted-nugent-violent-anti-obama-message-225142639.html

So... Threatening the president? inciting criminal acts? conspiracy?
None, I would guess. He used a violent metaphor, but I doubt it was meant as an explict instruction.

I wish he had cited his sources, as I would like to know how many of our soliders have had their legs blown off “for the Constitution”.

Saying "I'll tell you this right now: If Barack Obama becomes the president in November, again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year" is not a metaphor.

Hyperbole sounds more like it. I think he's implying that he's going to kill him, when really he's just going to throw shoes at him. That's how all the cool kids attack presidents.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3125 on: April 18, 2012, 03:58:44 pm »

Once I'm back home I'll have to try and find the website again, but I saw one that showed various politicians' publicly-stated opinions on various issues.  Aside from a small handle of social-freedom issues (which admittedly really pushed my buttons), it looks like some of his policies over the years are things that I really agree with.

"Over the years" being the operative words here.  Romney voiced a lot of views ten years back that he now disavows.  The center of his campaign is an attack on the policy that he himself brought to national attention for christssake.  If it weren't for Mitt Romney, there would be no Obamacare because it would still just be an idea a few guys at the Heritage institution were kicking around.
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Sowelu

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3126 on: April 18, 2012, 04:01:37 pm »

I don't give an ass what someone says during their primary campaign.  They're going to lie through their teeth about how far they lean to their party's side, then lean back to moderate for the general.  Past opinions when there wasn't as much at stake are a much better indicator.
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palsch

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3127 on: April 18, 2012, 04:05:33 pm »

Unfortunately I feel the same way. I feel like voting for Obama this time around is giving tacit approval for how the bailout was handled, PIPA, SOPA, ACTA, reversing himself on Guantanamo, NDAA, vastly expanding the power of the intelligence community....jesus, I've lost track of how many issues I feel like Obama has been on the wrong side of. And not the grudging "sorry I have no choice" wrong side, but the enthusiastic supporter of wrong shit side.
Erm, what side would that be?

Only the intelligence issue is truly on Obama. And I'm honestly not 100% on what this refers to. CIA drone strikes? It's the only real aspect I've seen that could be referred to as an expansion of the intelligence community.

The bailout was partly on him, but was a compromise with excess fat (mostly ineffective tax cuts) to get it through quickly. And that was only the parts passed after he came into office; much of the outlay was under Bush. And I'd argue that the bailout was largely successful and pretty much the best that could be achieved at the time. His overall economic efforts have been solid, given he doesn't control the purse strings.

On PIPA/SOPA the administration came out strongly against them. ACTA is a legacy issue, ongoing from long before Obama's time and with a strange life of it's own. He has backed it, but from a US point of view it's strongly in the national interest with few drawbacks. It's the rest of us who get screwed.

Guantanamo's closure has been blocked at every attempt by congress, combined with some of the realities of the situation. Moving the prisoners held there elsewhere or getting them through the courts has been a serious problem and there have been many obstructions. In particular read the intended portions of the NDAA which deal with detainee transfers.

And on the NDAA, it didn't change anything. It didn't remove any rights from US citizens and didn't create any powers that the US government didn't already claim and exercise. Obama fought against certain aspects that would have made things harder and managed to get them watered down enough to effectively ignore. He is fighting against the last dregs of those provisions now in trying to transfer more detainees to civilian courts.

Seriously, my biggest issue with Obama is the expansion of executive power claims, which is directly in opposition to his claims on the campaign trail in 2008. I understand and honestly expected a reversal, but was hoping he would exceed my expectations, not disappoint them. I'd still vote for him again (registration as a non-resident citizen is a bitch). He has been extremely strong in most areas that matter to me. Given another term I'd expect a lot more, including in areas he has already enjoyed success (still much work to be done in gay rights and healthcare and he could afford to expend more capital on them this time around).
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nenjin

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3128 on: April 18, 2012, 04:40:45 pm »

Quote
The bailout was partly on him, but was a compromise with excess fat (mostly ineffective tax cuts) to get it through quickly. And that was only the parts passed after he came into office; much of the outlay was under Bush. And I'd argue that the bailout was largely successful and pretty much the best that could be achieved at the time. His overall economic efforts have been solid, given he doesn't control the purse strings.

He put industry people in charge of the bail out to fix a problem the financial industry created. That was my main gripe with it to begin with. As to what the "best" we could have achieved is, it's business as usual in America again as far as corporations are concerned. I don't call that a resounding success, unless success for you was the status quo.

Quote
On PIPA/SOPA the administration came out strongly against them. ACTA is a legacy issue, ongoing from long before Obama's time and with a strange life of it's own. He has backed it, but from a US point of view it's strongly in the national interest with few drawbacks. It's the rest of us who get screwed.

From a US citizen's point of view, it sucks. I don't see why you're defending it or his decision to back it 100%.

Quote
Guantanamo's closure has been blocked at every attempt by congress, combined with some of the realities of the situation. Moving the prisoners held there elsewhere or getting them through the courts has been a serious problem and there have been many obstructions. In particular read the intended portions of the NDAA which deal with detainee transfers.

I have read about it. The president has basically ceded that Guantanamo will never close, and the detainees there will likely be detained for the rest of their natural lives at that facility. As long as that facility still stands, it can be used as a place for rendition and extra-judicial prison sentences...the exact reasons he said he wanted to close it.

Quote
And on the NDAA, it didn't change anything. It didn't remove any rights from US citizens and didn't create any powers that the US government didn't already claim and exercise. Obama fought against certain aspects that would have made things harder and managed to get them watered down enough to effectively ignore. He is fighting against the last dregs of those provisions now in trying to transfer more detainees to civilian courts.

It only took Congress to add the language explicitly stating what the act did or did not do. As it was originally conceived, it was so ambiguous it HAD to be clarified. That's not the behavior I expect of democratic presidents. And his whole "I agree not to make use of these provisions during my presidency" was a PR stunt, said in full light of the fact that the act will exist beyond his presidency. Again, this is not what I expect of a liberal democrat.

I simply don't trust what he says now, or where what he does honestly comes from. As I've said elsewhere, it's ALWAYS a one-two punch with that man, where he gives you something you want with one hand, then slaps you across the face with the other. I believe in compromise, but I get the distinct impression the nature of his compromises are decided within the industry before the public ever hears about them. I don't feel like we get equal representation in the president's considerations, at all. We're merely the people he has to explain himself to once his deals have been struck and because of his oration people take what he says at face value.

I voted for him on the promise that he'd work against the Washington political and lobbying machine, and he's shown me that he can't get into their pocket fast enough.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 04:43:25 pm by nenjin »
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3129 on: April 18, 2012, 06:59:59 pm »

As an Australian, a citizen of a country that generally has very strong ties to yours; I beg you, please, for the love of all that is holy, do not let another republican in power soon. The last time you guys did that, we ended up in a war on the other side of the world, that we're only just now pulling the troops out of.

That, and our opposition leader is basically a republican of the Gods, Guns and Gays schtick. He doesn't need the electoral boost that would come from a US government that shares his views :/

Even if you're disillusioned with your choices, choosing the wrong can still make the rest of the world suffer.
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palsch

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3130 on: April 18, 2012, 08:15:43 pm »

He put industry people in charge of the bail out to fix a problem the financial industry created. That was my main gripe with it to begin with. As to what the "best" we could have achieved is, it's business as usual in America again as far as corporations are concerned. I don't call that a resounding success, unless success for you was the status quo.
Success was avoiding a full blown depression.

You can argue that the banking collapse should have been used as an excuse to destroy the banking system and create a new socialist order, and I had friends online and IRL who genuinely thought we were heading into a revolutionary phase (but then some of them thought that about the London riots...). But from the point of view of the man trying to keep people alive, in their houses and out of bankruptcy, further disruption was something to be avoided.

The actual banking reform bills that were fought for alongside the bailout are robust and they needed to come from industry faces to have any sort of chance of getting through. Their enforcement has been largely blocked by congressional forces outside Obama's control. He has used the workarounds available to him but there are drastic limits to his powers in financial areas.

Quote
From a US citizen's point of view, it sucks. I don't see why you're defending it or his decision to back it 100%.
ACTA doesn't change US laws. It's an international treaty designed broadly to bring international IP laws in line with US laws so that patents and other IP can be enforced overseas more easily. (Certain) Industry interests are massively advantaged and the average citizen isn't going to see any change.

As a British/EU citizen, it's a horrible treaty and I don't think any other government should ever have signed it and that's a voting point with me. As a US citizen I oppose it on principle, out of solidarity with other nations. If I were in the US government, charged with acting in the provincial interests of those I represent? Hard call. It's broadly good for the US overall and unless the forces on the other side started coming up with serious policy proposals for reform there isn't really another path open. IP law is a total mess with gross inconsistencies and holes. You either come up with reforms or patches, and no serious government level reform has ever gotten off the ground.

For the record, I think there needs to be serious and fundamental copyright reform on the international level soon. ACTA was the opposite of the way to go about things. But none of that is on Obama as far as I'm concerned.
Quote
I have read about it. The president has basically ceded that Guantanamo will never close, and the detainees there will likely be detained for the rest of their natural lives at that facility. As long as that facility still stands, it can be used as a place for rendition and extra-judicial prison sentences...the exact reasons he said he wanted to close it.
Erm, he is still fighting hard to get the place closed. I can't imagine any steps he could have taken that he hasn't. Arguably he has overreached executive authority in a few cases (although I don't believe he has).

When Obama came into office he ordered a review of all prisoners. They found that many of them had few records attached to their cases. Combine the lack of information with the legal minefield of the circumstances the prisoners were captured and held and you have a near impossible ball to untangle. The eventual review found that 48 of the prisoners held could not be prosecuted but also could not be released for security reasons. The rest were cleared for release or trial. Getting those prisoners released, however, means securing extradition for people whose legal status is entirely up in the air, and where their release to other nations may be harmful either to that nation, the individual or others. Every single prisoner's case is complex, long winded and involves fighting congressional blocks as well as vested interests within the US government that are fighting to cover their own backs.

Short of accidentally blowing the whole place up I doubt there was any way to detangle the ball in the time he has had. I'm not even sure if it's possible in the next four. In any case, it's certainly impossible now for any further prisoners to be taken there and GTMO itself was never used for rendition.
Quote
It only took Congress to add the language explicitly stating what the act did or did not do. As it was originally conceived, it was so ambiguous it HAD to be clarified. That's not the behavior I expect of democratic presidents. And his whole "I agree not to make use of these provisions during my presidency" was a PR stunt, said in full light of the fact that the act will exist beyond his presidency. Again, this is not what I expect of a liberal democrat.
Yeah, that was a PR stunt because those provisions were not there in the first place. He was speaking to public fears through a signing statement, not actually ignoring any provisions contained within the law. Well, he did do that, but only with the provisions supposed to make GTMO prisoners impossible to transfer off of the island.

And to be clear, the US government has claimed the right to detail without trial US citizens on US soil since 2002 and José Padilla. The authorisation (supposedly) comes from the AUMF. The thing is, they would have to be incredibly careful. Absolutely nothing in any US law, not the NDAA or AUMF, remove habeas rights from US citizens, in any circumstances. Even GTMO prisoners have habeas rights. That means they can only detain someone for as long as it takes their case to get in front of the Supreme Court and their interpretation of the law to be dismissed. In Padilla's case they rapidly transferred him out of detention before this point was reached.

And yes, all of this is utter bullshit. It's also a legal quagmire that has had no real oversight from congress before the NDAA (and even then absolutely none within it; no version of the law I saw substantially changed detention law beyond the GTMO provisions). Obama has not actually done much in this area either way, backing off some of the arguments used in the Bush era. Getting attention focused on things by congress would really help things move in this area, which is why I hoped the NDAA would lead to a substantial review and writing (not rewriting, just writing) of US detention law and policy. No luck yet, but here's hoping.


I don't know, maybe I'm too focused on process these days but I'm getting more and more frustrated with people reacting to bills that basically restate the status quo as the end of the world, or when they blame Obama for things that he actually made better or didn't have control over. I'm starting to find it hard to understand this general perception of him as a traitor and crook when the actions trotted out to prove this are so often someone else's or the actual best path possible for the situation. And then the complete ignoring of the points I'd actually love to see him taken to task for...

But then I'm also of the view that any ethical man who spent a year as president would probably be due some jail time at the end of it.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3131 on: April 18, 2012, 08:17:56 pm »

If people are refering to TARP as the bailout, can I point out that it happened before Obama even won election, let alone was in office?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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nenjin

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3132 on: April 18, 2012, 08:34:19 pm »

I don't call him a traitor, but I do feel like in the name of economic recovery sacrificed he many chances to make a real change in the system. The things I do root for are shot down by Republicans before they can even take wing. I'm old enough to know that most promises are broken even by the best presidents, but that doesn't make it any easier to accept that you voted for someone who basically held the status quo up (at the alternative of things really falling apart), or inspire confidence that his second term will be better. At one point I argued that re-elected, he'd act with more decisively and in keeping with the whole "change" thing.

But now I'm honestly not sure I want to know what he's thinking of doing with his second term. I'm sure there's something in there I'll like. (Probably energy policy.) But there are things I'm kind of terrified he'll show support for (like CISPA.) Republicans would fall over each other to endorse CISPA, but if I'm basing my opinion of CISPA on principles, I can't vote for Obama with a clear conscious.

I don't honestly think Romney can win, with or without me voting in the general election. So unlike previous elections, I don't have the threat of "the worst of all evils" hanging over my decision to vote for a candidate I'm not sure about.

Quote
If people are refering to TARP as the bailout, can I point out that it happened before Obama even won election, let alone was in office?

He was in office when he appointed Geithner to run it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 08:36:28 pm by nenjin »
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3133 on: April 18, 2012, 08:41:31 pm »

I like the status quo.  My formative years for politics were 2000-2006, during which things kept going from bad to worse.  Incremental progress is as good as it gets in my experience.  Status quo looks pretty good from my perspective.  Status quo means we are succeeding at running out the clock until the demographics of the country change.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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jester

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #3134 on: April 18, 2012, 09:04:11 pm »

I like the status quo.  My formative years for politics were 2000-2006, during which things kept going from bad to worse.  Incremental progress is as good as it gets in my experience.  Status quo looks pretty good from my perspective.  Status quo means we are succeeding at running out the clock until the demographics of the country change.

Warmongering facist dictatorship run off slave labor ftw!
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