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[burningpet]

This is not a general skyrim discussion thread, that one exists already. this is also not a general skyrim rant thread, this one shouldn't exist yet. this is a thread about how disappointed i was to see how skyrim treats its dragons and how i wish they should have.

Skyrim dragons are basically medium sized flying lizard that you may infinitely encounter randomly in the world and which are approached just as any other monster in skyrim is being approached to - spam click your attacks and spells on it to kill it while trying to avoid its attacks.

Now imagine bethesda being brave about their game and dragons and actually taking notes from Tolkien view of dragons and shadow of the colossus view of the colossi:

Huge, powerful, rare, unique, desolated creatures, each with its own weak spot, each with its own unique personality, unique method of approaching. imagine you having each dragon as a side quest in a Dragon hunters faction line of quests, or weaved into the main quest, first you gather information from the world's men about him and through old legends, tales and lore discover where to find it, whats his weakness, how he is behaving. you does not just stumble into a dragon. you actively search for those old living legends from the past.

They could have been beautiful, they could have been memorable, they could have been challenging, they could have been dragons. now they are just glorified cliff hangers.

[quintin522]

This sounds more like, "I'm a little let down that these Skyrim dragons do not fit my definition of dragon." Of which there are alot

[NRDL]

Oh come on, these things are supposed to be able to attack ANYTHING in the game, just like any wild animal.  The thing that separates these from ordinary wild animals is that they fly and are super-awesomely strong.  They can attack the strongest city or stronghold or whatever in the entire game, and chances are, without the player's or some high level character's help, the dragon could win. 

This alone is enough reason for swooning, the Tolkien thing, while amazing, would just be pointless for them to implement.  The dragons are ANIMALS, not exactly bosses, in Shadow of Colossus terms, some personality would be nice, but this is a little demanding, don't you think? 

As for the uniquely tailored weaknesses and strengths, that severely removes the sand-boxy feel of fighting these things, you have to do a certain quest, to get a certain object, to do ANOTHER quest, to access a magical portal, until you can finally kill a dragon.  That's just an example, but having entire quests made around a certain thing ( dragons, in this case ) is just too cliche in the Elder Scrolls series.  I like interactivity, I like being able to completely screw with the game environment like some sort of weakened Loki, the straightforwardness of your idea just doesn't click for me. 

[Virtz]

That's just an example, but having entire quests made around a certain thing ( dragons, in this case ) is just too cliche in the Elder Scrolls series.

Quests centered around monster hunting are too "cliche" for the Elder Scrolls series, but fucking prophecies, some exaggerated importance of monarchs and a demonic invasion from a place that looks like hell aren't? Are you kidding? At this point there's nothing too cliche for the TES series.

[Duke 2.0]

 This sorta reminds me of back in the day when I was 13 and was really into roleplay websites. I had the audacity of making evil elves, which several players were offended by. One even said "Some of my best friends are elves!" This was totally out of character.

 Chill out man, this is exactly the issue we keep have on these forums towards mech games or anything involving the post-apocalypse. Oh the mechs don't control well enough, they don't feel like hulking steel bodies, there are not enough resource-hoarding and survival aspects, these flying dinosaurs are not as majestic and noble as my deviantart roleplay characters, etc.

 The game has yet to be released yet. We only see teasers meant to make people want to play. They show all the action and gameplay to make people want to play. A trailer consisting of five minutes of explaining the TES lore, the place of dragons, why they do whatever they do and all that, isn't a smart marketing idea. We inherently cannot see the lore or story behind the game because the window through which we see this stuff cannot show that.

[Levi]

Hee hee, I only count two legs on the skyrim dragons.  That technically makes them Wyverns, doesn't it?   

[BigD145]

Hee hee, I only count two legs on the skyrim dragons.  That technically makes them Wyverns, doesn't it?   

Wyverns are a type of dragon "commonly found" in the UK, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and on over to Russia.

[Biag]

Seriously, they're like deer over there. Can't drive twenty miles without another damn wyvern running across the road in front of you.

[burningpet]

This sounds more like, "I'm a little let down that these Skyrim dragons do not fit my definition (a certain shared view) of dragon." Of which there are alot

this is exactly what it should have sounded, does something in my post imply differently?

"Oh come on, these things are supposed to be able to attack ANYTHING in the game, just like any wild animal.  The thing that separates these from ordinary wild animals is that they fly and are super-awesomely strong.  They can attack the strongest city or stronghold or whatever in the entire game, and chances are, without the player's or some high level character's help, the dragon could win.

you have just described a glorified cliff hanger.

As for the uniquely tailored weaknesses and strengths, that severely removes the sand-boxy feel of fighting these things, you have to do a certain quest, to get a certain object, to do ANOTHER quest, to access a magical portal, until you can finally kill a dragon.  That's just an example, but having entire quests made around a certain thing ( dragons, in this case ) is just too cliche in the Elder Scrolls series.  I like interactivity, I like being able to completely screw with the game environment like some sort of weakened Loki, the straightforwardness of your idea just doesn't click for me.

there are many cliches in TES and if the opposite of cliche in this regard is dull, id take cliche.
Oblivion took away the "screw with the game environment" and i am willing to put my money on skyrim doing the same. having specific side quests will not hurt the sandboxy feel at all, if anything, giving those dragons personalities could lead to different approaches, like talking and serving them and not necessarily killing them.

[burningpet]

This sorta reminds me of back in the day when I was 13 and was really into roleplay websites. I had the audacity of making evil elves, which several players were offended by. One even said "Some of my best friends are elves!" This was totally out of character.

 Chill out man, this is exactly the issue we keep have on these forums towards mech games or anything involving the post-apocalypse. Oh the mechs don't control well enough, they don't feel like hulking steel bodies, there are not enough resource-hoarding and survival aspects, these flying dinosaurs are not as majestic and noble as my deviantart roleplay characters, etc.

 The game has yet to be released yet. We only see teasers meant to make people want to play. They show all the action and gameplay to make people want to play. A trailer consisting of five minutes of explaining the TES lore, the place of dragons, why they do whatever they do and all that, isn't a smart marketing idea. We inherently cannot see the lore or story behind the game because the window through which we see this stuff cannot show that.

Beside trying to ridicule me and my views, you are doing nothing but assisting me deliver the notion that skyrim dragon are, to speak in modern jargon, dumbed down consolfied dragons.

[Duke 2.0]

 I offer not ridicule for you, but your views are quite silly and this is a point I will not concede on. I will also use this as a chance to jab at various other points of view popular here regarding how games should be.

 I have said nothing about the skyrim dragons, only commentary on how they are marketed and how any analysis on them is inherently flawed due to only seeing them through marketing.

[NRDL]

What's the deal with the whole glorified cliff hanger?  Please, elaborate on that.

I guess you're right on the cliche thing, I'll concede to that.  Back to the dragon's lack of Tolkien-ism, and the options you are thinking of, serving and engaging in diplomacy, etc, with them, that is a cool, if somewhat unfeasible, idea. 

What I don't like, and this is just my views, is that once you create a true, set-in-stone personality and history, the character becomes predictable.  Even if no missions force you to interact with the dragons, naturally, you would want to visit the creatures that are a massive part of the Skyrim hype.  And after meeting and interacting with them, they become slightly boring, and they become even more predictable as time goes on. 

The thing I like about the dragons just being animals, being predators, is that they are not bound by the plot, that much.  They actually have some freedom, the only other character in the game with this sort of freedom is ( I think ) the player. 

Like Duke said, this argument is rather pointless, and I have really been the one instigating it, my fault, I'm sorry.  I really can't help arguing and debating, especially when I think I'm right.  I'm just trying to explain myself. 

[Duke 2.0]

  Back to the dragon's lack of Tolkien-ism, and the options you are thinking of, serving and engaging in diplomacy, etc, with them, that is a cool, if somewhat unfeasible, idea. 

 To bring this closer to the core of my issue with this whole thread: Why? Why do they have to be like this? Why must I play a game where I can diplomacy with these creatures? What if some people just don't care about this, and are perfectly fine if dragons are just another predator to have cool fights with?

 It's ultimately a disagreement of styles from what I see. There might be some meat on defending the official lore, but that has been ignored enough to not matter now.

[NRDL]

I would actually prefer it if the dragons were massively powerful predators, but even I have to admit, SOME personality would be nice.

Still, I love the dragon-eat-player-kill-different-dragon-after-respawning circle of life thing that will hopefully be in Skyrim. 

[burningpet]

cliff hangers = cliff racers, sorry about that mistake.

yes, the dragons part i envision cant be replayable past maybe 3 times for each dragon, i see that, i still think its worth it. especially if they come as part of the world and game and not the objective of the game.

they are not bound by plot, they are bound by random numbers and by, what seem would be, simple, straight forward mechanics. they have as much freedom as any other randomly generated enemy in any other video game. none. they spawn and attack. again, just like a glorified cliff racer.  and although suggested that not all will be hostile, i am willing to put my money on them being either all hostile, or having just one or two pre-scripted, pre positioned non violent dragons.