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[Vehudur]

So, I have an idea for a megaproject:

Barad Dur

obviously, before I begin to plan, ext.  I need information.

Firstly, Has anyone ever done Barad Dur before?

If not, then the more technical stuff:

Do we know how big this tower is?  If we can get a measurement, we can get it to z-levels.  The closest I've heard is 1500m, which would be 750 z-levels (which may be prohibitive due to frame rate).  I hope this estimate is wrong, or I figure this will take the better part of a year even with dwarf speed set to 1.

How big of an embark area do you think I'll need?  3x3?  4x4?   Naturally, invasions would be off.  I'd pity the idiot goblins who would attack a full-sized Barad Dur.

Anything else I'm not thinking of?

[Nil Eyeglazed]

If you go by the depiction in the movies, and assume that middle-earth has the same radius as our own earth, barad dur would have to be about 1800m tall (to be seen from 167km away).

The sears tower is 442m tall.

Magic, sure, but that's a little ridiculous.

Assume that barad dur lies on elevated ground respective to the black gate, and you can get away with much more reasonable heights.  I would suggest limiting yourself to the height of the sears tower.  Then you only need 221 z-levels.  A cinch.

2m isn't a very typical size for floors, though.  It might be more reasonable to go with the floor count.  Sears tower has only 108 stories (for its 442m).

[Vehudur]

If you go by the depiction in the movies, and assume that middle-earth has the same radius as our own earth, barad dur would have to be about 1800m tall (to be seen from 167km away).

The sears tower is 442m tall.

Magic, sure, but that's a little ridiculous.

Assume that barad dur lies on elevated ground respective to the black gate, and you can get away with much more reasonable heights.  I would suggest limiting yourself to the height of the sears tower.  Then you only need 221 z-levels.  A cinch.

2m isn't a very typical size for floors, though.  It might be more reasonable to go with the floor count.  Sears tower has only 108 stories (for its 442m).

Yes, Barad Dur is ridiculously tall, that's WHY it collapses when Sauron's magic is no longer supporting it - note the foundation crumbles, no natural material can hold that kind of weight.

Using the same height-per-floor as the seers tower, it'd be 366Z tall.  More reasonable, but still problematic - I don't think the game actually lets you get 370 levels of air above ground, does it?

[Girlinhat]

The game allows a natural 100Z above the highest point of the embark.  A sheer mountain cliff can give you cliff+100 open air above the lower ground regions, if that makes sense.  However, someone recently genned a bugged world with infinite sky.  There's a small handful of playable embarks there, most are bugged to hell and back - literally, but a precious few are theoretically playable.

[Vehudur]

I wonder if a taller cliff would be possible?  Like, say, 100z - 350z or something obscene like that.

I looked at that bugged world, and I have not found any with a good enough frame rate to build a megaproject (keeping in mind the slowdown).

[Girlinhat]

Either way, from the exerts that wikipedia gives of the as-written description... well first of all it's up for debate.  I was never a huge fan of Tolkien, much of his style is dry and almost pastoral, like reading from an old bible, so I don't much remember it from the one time I did read it just to say "fine, I read it already".  But, wikipedia agrees that Tolkien didn't describe it very much, simply saying "it is vast" and such.  Shows how great a writer he is, huh?  Leaving it up for the reader to fill in ALL the details...  Still, the few descriptive lines say something along the lines of 'tower upon tower, wall upon wall' which would seem to imply to me that it's essentially a fortress with a small footprint.  Take your average dwarven fortress, and then compress it into a 1x1 nanofort without much digging.  You end up with a solid, heavy chunk of fort, heaved upwards like wet clay being pushed together by hand, extruding up the top as it's forced higher.  It's not a castle with walls and courtyards and barracks, instead it's a solid stone wall that leeches into one massive superstructure, or a few closely-huddled buildings that essentially lean against each other in their proximity.  "Compact" and "hard" are descriptive words that come to mind.  And the text also implies more than one tower.

In other words, the popular "tower from the ground" doesn't seem right:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The sort of "fortress thrust upwards" seems more legit to me:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Vehudur]

So, essentially, we're designing it from the ground up?  Great.  Also, how do I find a map with a 100z+ cliff and flat land large enough for a foundation next to it.

Also, part of writing IS leaving a fare amount of detail up to the reader's mind, think about it: if Tolkien gave every little detail (even compared to the great detail he gives...  sorry that it went over your head) the books would be several times thicker.

[Corneria]

So, essentially, we're designing it from the ground up?  Great.  Also, how do I find a map with a 100z+ cliff and flat land large enough for a foundation next to it.

Also, part of writing IS leaving a fare amount of detail up to the reader's mind, think about it: if Tolkien gave every little detail (even compared to the great detail he gives...  sorry that it went over your head) the books would be several times thicker.

The  issue is that he DOES go into detail. Far, far too much of it in all the wrong places.

[Oliolli]

I think you can change the top Z-level from advanced worldgen parameters.

Balrogs don't have wings.

[Girlinhat]

You can set the "levels above ground" from 1 to 100 in advanced worldgen.  However, you MAY be able to directly edit the worldgen.txt and set it higher.  To my knowledge, no one has tested this.  Directly editing the file can allow for greater temperatures and longer worldgen, with one person genning a 100,000 year world (normal max is 10,000).  So, it's worth a try, it may give you some extra headroom.

[Melissia]

Shows how great a writer he is, huh?  Leaving it up for the reader to fill in ALL the details...

What's wrong with that?

The imagination is far more powerful than words or images can describe.

[Girlinhat]

True, but that's not a writer's job.  If writing were to leave the reader to imagine it, then I could write a pamphlet that says "This is a good story" and the reader could imagine something and it'd be a great work, right?

Either way, needless to say that I'm not a big fan of Tolkien, I respect that he brought fantasy out of the nerd basement, but I think he's vastly over-praised for what he did.  But this isn't really the issue here (sort of).  The issue is how to build and maintain the dark tower, and that's difficult because the movie version provides the only real description of it at all.  And if you're thinking that a movie is ever accurate to the book, then lol.

[Vehudur]

True, but that's not a writer's job.  If writing were to leave the reader to imagine it, then I could write a pamphlet that says "This is a good story" and the reader could imagine something and it'd be a great work, right?

Either way, needless to say that I'm not a big fan of Tolkien, I respect that he brought fantasy out of the nerd basement, but I think he's vastly over-praised for what he did.  But this isn't really the issue here (sort of).  The issue is how to build and maintain the dark tower, and that's difficult because the movie version provides the only real description of it at all.  And if you're thinking that a movie is ever accurate to the book, then lol.

It's a writer's job to give you enough for you to imagine it.  Tolkien does that.  Truthfully, a big freaking tower isn't too hard to immagine - we have many.  Again, I'm sorry you missed it.

[Necro910]

If the in-movie version was made out of real materials, and the tower was falling due to the massive energy distortion in the area (MAGIC IS GONE ONOEZ), then it would probably be made of steel or some such and be coated in the ash of the nearby volcanoes for its color.

Anyways, you'll need one of those 700 z-level sky worlds that are sometimes spawns. Or you could do an Armok's Whisker world and cut down the candy.

[Zorae]

You could just completely dig out the first 100-200z levels. You could dig out the land to be as smooth/craggy as you want and get the 300z levels above ground that you need.

Bonus points if you dig down to the SMR and then unleash the circus onto land so that your 300z level tower is surrounded by magma, SMR, and clowns.