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[IronyOwl]

ed boy:

Irony owl, you've been very quiet. Have you managed to form an opinion of someone yet? Why have you not been scumhunting recently?

Was getting a town vibe off Powder Miner, despite his generally terrible play. Not sure if I'm getting it any more, but I'm not getting the opposite either. Gut feelings are weird like that.

I haven't been scumhunting because you're all noobs. It's hard to figure out who's not actually town when not even the townies are entirely certain what town is. Also, scumhunting people who are flailing tends to not help them stop very well, or at least usually no better than just pointing it out.

Now, what was it about my answers to Mormota and Powder Miner that didn't cover this?



Urist:

IronyOwl:

IronyOwl, you are nice providing tips, but who do you suspect? If you could choose to kill off one person now, who would it be?

This is a good question.

Currently, I don't particularly suspect anyone; with all the flailing that's going on, it's been difficult to pick out anything that seems outright scummy. Just about everyone is lurking, active lurking, and/or using questionable tactics.

If you don't particularly suspect anyone, why aren't you trying to find something suspicious? Or have you begun suspecting someone and simply not following up on your suspicions? You're all about telling other people to scumhunt, but when it comes to actual scumhunting, I find you sorely lacking, which sets off alarm bells in my head.

I'm pretty sure I just explained this in the part you quoted. How am I supposed to pick out suspicious behavior amongst uncertain flailing? What makes a bandwagon or lack of scumhunting a sign of scum and not proof of not being sure what they're doing? And how does my scumhunting help others, notably whoever I'm pressuring, get better at it?

Right now, I feel the thread is in need of IC direction more than it is my personal scumhunting. As a prime example of this, I can't really tell who's being scummy and who just doesn't know what they're doing, so trying to scumhunt them is of somewhat limited utility.

IC advice-giving does not preclude scumhunting. The town is always in need of people who actively attempt to find scum. Town who don't hunt scum are bad town and look like scum. Scum who don't hunt scum are easier to spot, although not so much from what I've seen of this game. Why aren't you hunting scum?

Because it's hard to do amongst noobs, and because it generally doesn't help people start doing what they should be.


Now, what was it about my responses to Mormota and Powder Miner that didn't address this?



Shakerag:

Well, mipe9 was lynched and flipped town.  I find it a bit of a stretch to believe that he was entirely mislynched by town members, and that the scumteam just sat back and watched.  With how mipe9 started D1, as I mentioned before, it would have been pretty easy for the scumteam to nudge suspicion and votes onto him.  Therefore, I beleive that one or both of the scumteam voted for mipe9 D1, and/or were casting suspicion on him to draw other votes in. 

No. Bad. WRONG. "It would have been convenient for scum" is not even remotely the same thing as "At least one scum was doing it."

If you don't have a good reason why the scum wouldn't or couldn't have sat back and just watched it happen, don't assume they didn't. Locking yourself into "At least one of these players MUST be scum!" for a bad reason is crippling. Even if it's true, you should be able to pick them out normally.



Powder Miner:

IronyOwl, I never had any problem with your responses to Mormota. Not sure what you meant by that question.
And sure, the thread might need IC direction, but can't you direct and scumhunt at the same time?

Well, my response to Mormota didn't cover your question, evidently. Why not?

I could, but I don't think it'd be very productive.

And I'm still calling you a liar, so you might want to address that.

[Jim Groovester]

Your opinion on other people matters because if you're town then it tells me what the results of your scumhunting is. If you don't have a strong opinion, or if there are inconsistencies in your opinion, then it either means that you're a bad scumhunter or that you're scum.

Sure, my opinion of them on whether I think they're town and such, but not my opinion on their progress as players. I can gauge the latter much quicker than I can the former, and I've been talking about their progress as players this whole time.

Shakerag, if you're asking questions of the people who voted mipe9 about their votes, there must obviously be something you're dissatisfied about them with. Care to tell me what that is?

Well, mipe9 was lynched and flipped town.  I find it a bit of a stretch to believe that he was entirely mislynched by town members, and that the scumteam just sat back and watched.  With how mipe9 started D1, as I mentioned before, it would have been pretty easy for the scumteam to nudge suspicion and votes onto him.  Therefore, I beleive that one or both of the scumteam voted for mipe9 D1, and/or were casting suspicion on him to draw other votes in.

Is that the only reason?

You having an inkling that that might be the case is fine enough, but you really need to look at the reasons of everyone involved. So far I haven't seen you do that, besides ask a few questions here and there with no followup. It took me to ask you about it to get you to do it.

Powder Miner's got it right. There were cases and extensions and reasons involved. I asked what you thought was wrong with the cases, but instead, you're basing your current suspicions solely on the WIFOM that some scum was in on the lynch.

EDIT: Also IronyOwl. Until you have good reason to think that is the case you shouldn't. Assuming that some scum were in on the mislynch is not an assumption you can safely make.

So, I asked you about mipe9 before.  What was he doing that made your opinion of him worse after you voted?  You responded to Urist that you aren't getting any good reads off of anybody because all you see is "newbie, newbie, newbie, newbie, and so on, and not much else."  Why was mipe9 different, then?

He did things I strongly recognized as being scumtells more than newbtells.

Here's a slice of his posts after I voted for him. 1 2 3 4

You can see that he was doing absolutely no hunting whatsoever, and only reacting to what people asked questions of him. His vote on IronyOwl clinched it, since it was completely baseless and looked like a desperate move to do something, anything, to look town.

It was passive, reactive play, which looked very much like scum play.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Urist:

IronyOwl:

IronyOwl, you are nice providing tips, but who do you suspect? If you could choose to kill off one person now, who would it be?

This is a good question.

Currently, I don't particularly suspect anyone; with all the flailing that's going on, it's been difficult to pick out anything that seems outright scummy. Just about everyone is lurking, active lurking, and/or using questionable tactics.

If you don't particularly suspect anyone, why aren't you trying to find something suspicious? Or have you begun suspecting someone and simply not following up on your suspicions? You're all about telling other people to scumhunt, but when it comes to actual scumhunting, I find you sorely lacking, which sets off alarm bells in my head.

I'm pretty sure I just explained this in the part you quoted. How am I supposed to pick out suspicious behavior amongst uncertain flailing? What makes a bandwagon or lack of scumhunting a sign of scum and not proof of not being sure what they're doing? And how does my scumhunting help others, notably whoever I'm pressuring, get better at it?

Right now, I feel the thread is in need of IC direction more than it is my personal scumhunting. As a prime example of this, I can't really tell who's being scummy and who just doesn't know what they're doing, so trying to scumhunt them is of somewhat limited utility.

IC advice-giving does not preclude scumhunting. The town is always in need of people who actively attempt to find scum. Town who don't hunt scum are bad town and look like scum. Scum who don't hunt scum are easier to spot, although not so much from what I've seen of this game. Why aren't you hunting scum?

Because it's hard to do amongst noobs, and because it generally doesn't help people start doing what they should be.


Now, what was it about my responses to Mormota and Powder Miner that didn't address this?

I neglected to factor in the similarities between newbie behavior and scummy behavior. As such, I thought you were using the other players' newness as an excuse to not hunt. Taking that factor into account, I see the need for the ICs to get us to be at least competent before you two can truly begin scumhunting. In essence, you're hunting for scum by trying to reduce/eliminate newbie town mistakes and general uncertainty that the scum are hiding behind. I don't know why I didn't see that earlier. I'm still suspicious of you, but no more than I am of anyone else at this point.

How much procrastinating have you been doing? This is a surprisingly good first post.

About an hour's worth.

I mean in total. How many games have you read before you jumped in here?

Three.

[Jim Groovester]

I neglected to factor in the similarities between newbie behavior and scummy behavior. As such, I thought you were using the other players' newness as an excuse to not hunt. Taking that factor into account, I see the need for the ICs to get us to be at least competent before you two can truly begin scumhunting. In essence, you're hunting for scum by trying to reduce/eliminate newbie town mistakes and general uncertainty that the scum are hiding behind. I don't know why I didn't see that earlier. I'm still suspicious of you, but no more than I am of anyone else at this point.

Hey, don't ease up too much though.

If you've got legitimate issue with one of the ICs, you better not give IronyOwl or me any slack just because we're the ICs. We're still players in the game, and we could still be scum just like any one of you.

Avoiding asking questions because of our positions is akin to not asking us questions for any other reason. Taking on more powerful players is probably something a lot of everybody is going to have to go through at some point in their mafia career, so they might as well learn it here.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I'm letting up for now because the only scummy behavior I currently see from either of you is a lack of scumhunting, which isn't exclusive to you and you have a valid reason for. Once I get answers from Mormota and Powder Miner (probably tomorrow morning), I'll see what I can do about removing that reason and then re-evaluate you.

[Mormota]

Mormota, why are you voting ed boy? Is his vote for Powder Miner the only reason?

PFP. In my opinion, he was not actively contributing to scumhunting and I did not find his questions satisfactory. He was also sitting on his vote against Powder and even admitted so. I will look through his posts later today.

[ed boy]

Now, what was it about my answers to Mormota and Powder Miner that didn't cover this?

Your answers to Mormota and Powder Miner were given some time ago. I wanted to see if your position had changed.

[Shakerag]

Hi, Jim!  It's me again.

So, I asked you about mipe9 before.  What was he doing that made your opinion of him worse after you voted?  You responded to Urist that you aren't getting any good reads off of anybody because all you see is "newbie, newbie, newbie, newbie, and so on, and not much else."  Why was mipe9 different, then?

He did things I strongly recognized as being scumtells more than newbtells.

Here's a slice of his posts after I voted for him. 1 2 3 4

You can see that he was doing absolutely no hunting whatsoever, and only reacting to what people asked questions of him. His vote on IronyOwl clinched it, since it was completely baseless and looked like a desperate move to do something, anything, to look town.

It was passive, reactive play, which looked very much like scum play.

And how did mipe9's passive, reactive play differ from Mindmaker's passive, reactive play?  Why vote mipe9 over Mindmaker?  Also:

Jim Groovester, who's (apart from powder miner) scumhunting are you least satisfied with?

Shakerag. He's disappeared.

I'm mostly pleased with what everybody's doing.

Can you seriously tell me, with a straight face, that you were "mostly pleased" with Mindmaker's scumhunting at that point? 

Also, Jim, what's your strategy on replacements?  How much weight will you give Mindmaker's posts compared to Urists's posts?  Since he's coming in mid-ish D2, what do you think will give you the best read of him?  Pressing?  Or sitting back and watching?  I'm still waiting for you to jump in on scumhunting and show us nubfaces how it's done.

[Urist Imiknorris]

You can't wait for the scum to reveal themselves. You need to go out and make them reveal themselves. Start picking apart what they do, and digging at their answers and their arguments.

ed boy, your pressure vote for Powder Miner isn't scumhunting. While I believe your questions about Jim are valid, a pressure vote alone isn't enough to reveal PM as scum or town, unless it gets him lynched. So why aren't you investigating Powder Miner?

Mormota, you're being vague. What didn't you find satisfactory about ed boy's questions?

[Shakerag]

Also, votecount, please.  That lurkertracker thing is neat, but I wish it gave a clearer current votecount.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Currently I'm voting Mormota's voting ed boy's voting Powder Miner's voting IronyOwl, and you're voting Jim.

[Shakerag]

Hey Urist, since you're actually around right now... I'm assuming you've read up on what's transpired so far, so what's your take on the D1 votes and the whole mipe9 shenanigans? 

[Dariush]

I'm usually doing votecounts more often, it's just that over the last few days there weren't enough vote changes to warrant one, in my opinion.

Votecount:

• ed boy: Mormota,
• Mormota: Urist Imiknorris,
• Shakerag:
• Urist Imiknorris:
• Powder Miner: ed boy,
• Jim Groovester: Shakerag,
• IronyOwl: Powder Miner,

Not voting: Jim Groovester, IronyOwl,

The day will end tomorrow, 6PM GMT. You need 3 votes to extend and 5 to shorten.

LT for this game. (Mostly for myself, for easier votecounts, but feel free to use it)

[Urist Imiknorris]

Well, mipe9 started with a bullshit fakeclaim that had no real point, moved to voting ed boy for something he hadn't done yet/for no reason at all, tried to buddy up to the ICs, then started active lurking, responding only to questions asked of him instead of asking any himself and being overly defensive. I would probably have ended up voting for him unless I was absolutely sure of someone else's scumminess.

As for D1 voting, I'm going back through the day now.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Regarding D1 voting:

ed boy's vote stayed on Jafferey/Shakerag for most of the day, occasionally asking other people questions, but mostly sitting on his vote against a lurker. Once Jafferey was replaced and Shakerag proved to be more active, ed boy changed his vote to mipe9, four posts after Mindmaker did. His was the vote that sealed mipe's fate. ed boy, were you intentionally going after easy lynches?