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Poll

What is your affiliated political party? (U.S.)

Republican
- 5 (6%)
Democrat
- 8 (9.5%)
Libertarian
- 11 (13.1%)
Undecided/Independent
- 38 (45.2%)
Other (Anarchist, Communist, Green, ect.)
- 22 (26.2%)

Total Members Voted: 84


Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 19

Author Topic: Political Debate (U.S.)  (Read 17571 times)

mainiac

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2011, 04:33:05 pm »

Quote
Gun laws affect crime.
All of them do? Positively or negatively?

That would matter if we were debating the principle of an individual law.  However gun laws, in general are a group of laws that affect crime.  Crime is an issue that affects everyone.  Therefore everyone is a stakeholder on this issue.

Yes, guns when used safely are not an issue.  However unsafe use of guns accounts for 25,000k deaths a year, second only to automobiles in violent deaths.  And guns contribute a lot, lot less to the general welfare then automobiles.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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DeathsDisciple

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2011, 04:35:25 pm »

Quote
Gun laws affect crime.
All of them do? Positively or negatively?

That would matter if we were debating the principle of an individual law.  However gun laws, in general are a group of laws that affect crime.  Crime is an issue that affects everyone.  Therefore everyone is a stakeholder on this issue.

Yes, guns when used safely are not an issue.  However unsafe use of guns accounts for 25,000k deaths a year, second only to automobiles in violent deaths.  And guns contribute a lot, lot less to the general welfare then automobiles.
Not to be rude, but: Your point?
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mainiac

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2011, 04:54:54 pm »

My point is that I was responding to his rhetorical question.  Why don't you ask him what his point was.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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[CAN_INTERNET]
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Bauglir

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2011, 05:01:33 pm »

A flat tax would be great in principle, but given reality an effective government trying to use one would demand greater than 100% taxes from a lot of people. It's not really feasible, and if somebody's got to carry a greater burden, it might as well be the one who can bear it. Kind of like how you wouldn't insist on a human child to "do its share" helping a family move, and haul the same percentage of its body weight as a horse.

It's not like a rational person would think of high taxes on high income as a disincentive to earn a high income. If you're taxed 40% of your income over $100,000, and you make $200,000 you're still taking home $60,000 more than if you hadn't earned that second 100k in the first place.

You could argue that a proper government's expenses wouldn't be so high because it would be smaller, and thus avert this, but I'm skeptical of that and will have to first be convinced that it would be acceptable to gut the government enough to bring the tax rate to 0 (let's say they get by on donations or something), given the number of poor who already live paycheck-to-paycheck while not paying taxes because they don't have a large enough income. Since these people, and those poorer, would not be able to survive additional expenses (such as any tax at all), your plan either has to accommodate them or discard them. And you're not likely to convince me that the latter is justified.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Criptfeind

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2011, 05:05:42 pm »

Please summarise that two hour video.  I'm assuming you've watched it unlike the other sources you posted (y'know, like the one that contradicted your point).

As far as I can tell it's saying that all income tax is illegal.  Including the flat rate tax you're suggesting.

I think I am going to give it a try.

Also:
I have found the link and removed it. Official Apology is in that post.

That seems a bit dishonest, after all, you showed how you were wrong in the same post, so why take it away but leave the clearly wrong one?
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DeathsDisciple

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2011, 05:06:45 pm »

A flat tax would be great in principle, but given reality an effective government trying to use one would demand greater than 100% taxes from a lot of people. It's not really feasible, and if somebody's got to carry a greater burden, it might as well be the one who can bear it. Kind of like how you wouldn't insist on a human child to "do its share" helping a family move, and haul the same percentage of its body weight as a horse.

It's not like a rational person would think of high taxes on high income as a disincentive to earn a high income. If you're taxed 40% of your income over $100,000, and you make $200,000 you're still taking home $60,000 more than if you hadn't earned that second 100k in the first place.

You could argue that a proper government's expenses wouldn't be so high because it would be smaller, and thus avert this, but I'm skeptical of that and will have to first be convinced that it would be acceptable to gut the government enough to bring the tax rate to 0 (let's say they get by on donations or something), given the number of poor who already live paycheck-to-paycheck while not paying taxes because they don't have a large enough income. Since these people, and those poorer, would not be able to survive additional expenses (such as any tax at all), your plan either has to accommodate them or discard them. And you're not likely to convince me that the latter is justified.
First of all: I don't want to tax everyone 100%; I want to tax everyone, for example 5%, or 10%.
I think that most people can afford that.
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DeathsDisciple

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #111 on: September 06, 2011, 05:09:02 pm »

Also:
I have found the link and removed it. Official Apology is in that post.

That seems a bit dishonest, after all, you showed how you were wrong in the same post, so why take it away but leave the clearly wrong one?
Damn, I'm not good with this computer crap.
Very Sorry.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 05:12:33 pm by DeathsDisciple »
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Criptfeind

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #112 on: September 06, 2011, 05:11:17 pm »

THAT IS WHAT I MEANT TOTALLY AND YOU ARE NOT MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF AT ALL

Also: On the video: Shows roughly a 12 year old understanding of the financial system filled with lies and sound bites. Pretty much every other conspiracy video ever, not really worth watching.
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lemon10

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #113 on: September 06, 2011, 05:14:28 pm »

A flat tax would be great in principle, but given reality an effective government trying to use one would demand greater than 100% taxes from a lot of people. It's not really feasible, and if somebody's got to carry a greater burden, it might as well be the one who can bear it. Kind of like how you wouldn't insist on a human child to "do its share" helping a family move, and haul the same percentage of its body weight as a horse.

It's not like a rational person would think of high taxes on high income as a disincentive to earn a high income. If you're taxed 40% of your income over $100,000, and you make $200,000 you're still taking home $60,000 more than if you hadn't earned that second 100k in the first place.

You could argue that a proper government's expenses wouldn't be so high because it would be smaller, and thus avert this, but I'm skeptical of that and will have to first be convinced that it would be acceptable to gut the government enough to bring the tax rate to 0 (let's say they get by on donations or something), given the number of poor who already live paycheck-to-paycheck while not paying taxes because they don't have a large enough income. Since these people, and those poorer, would not be able to survive additional expenses (such as any tax at all), your plan either has to accommodate them or discard them. And you're not likely to convince me that the latter is justified.
First of all: I don't want to tax everyone 100%; I want to tax everyone, for example 5%, or 10%.
I think that most people can afford that.
A tax of 10% to everyone wouldn't be a flat tax it would be a proportional income tax.
A flat tax would be taxing everyone a flat amount no matter how much they earn, say $1000 a year even if they are a CEO.
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And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
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Nadaka

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #114 on: September 06, 2011, 05:15:22 pm »

Edit: lemon10, also read. I think your definition of flat tax is off.

Bauglir: not sure if its just the way I am reading you, but it looks like your concept of a flat tax is different between your first and second paragraph.

A flat tax typically refers to a flat % of income tax, as opposed to a fixed tax such as drivers license registration that could be more than 100% of someones income if they had a low enough income and a sufficiently high fixed tax. It is called a flat tax because it takes a flat percentage of income instead of a progressively higher or lower percentage based on the amount you earn.

A flat tasks only potentially viable if there is a sufficient level of social services that any taxes on low income families are completely returned. Unfortunately most of the flat tax proponents also want to gut social services.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 05:19:54 pm by Nadaka »
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DeathsDisciple

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #115 on: September 06, 2011, 05:16:45 pm »

THAT IS WHAT I MEANT TOTALLY AND YOU ARE NOT MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF AT ALL

Also: On the video: Shows roughly a 12 year old understanding of the financial system filled with lies and sound bites. Pretty much every other conspiracy video ever, not really worth watching.
To a Communists mind: it is a conspiracy.
To everyone else: it sounds true.
Did you watch the whole video?
Be happy I apologized. Some people I know wouldn't.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #116 on: September 06, 2011, 05:21:57 pm »

A flat tax would be taxing everyone a flat amount no matter how much they earn, say $1000 a year even if they are a CEO.
What? Where do you get that information at all?

I mean really now, how wrong can you get? (That wrong.)

To a Communists mind: it is a conspiracy.
To everyone else: it sounds true.

You got any proof? Any statistics? At all?

Did you watch the whole video?

Not very much, I just wanted to make a bit of a post detailing the start, which pulled up two very old, and very debunked conspiracy theories in the first five minutes.

Be happy I apologized. Some people I know wouldn't.

You're money baby, never change.

Edit: I change my mind, everyone should watch this video.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 05:27:47 pm by Criptfeind »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #117 on: September 06, 2011, 05:29:37 pm »

Leafsnail, Leafsnail, Leafsnail. The Psychopath part was an exaggeration; but I hope you understand my point. Not to be rude, but watch the video Leafsnail: you might learn something. And what link contradicted my point?
I do understand that it some situations it may be better if people are armed.  I'm not convince those outweigh the situations where it's worse that people are armed.

The video looks like every other poorly made conspiracy video, and I thank Criptfeind for attempting to watch it.

Leafsnail:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on several issues. Among this, apparently, the meaning of the word effect.
I think the idea is that you're affected by an effect.  I guess confusing the two words didn't help us much.
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Bauglir

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2011, 05:32:15 pm »

A flat tax would be great in principle, but given reality an effective government trying to use one would demand greater than 100% taxes from a lot of people. It's not really feasible, and if somebody's got to carry a greater burden, it might as well be the one who can bear it. Kind of like how you wouldn't insist on a human child to "do its share" helping a family move, and haul the same percentage of its body weight as a horse.

It's not like a rational person would think of high taxes on high income as a disincentive to earn a high income. If you're taxed 40% of your income over $100,000, and you make $200,000 you're still taking home $60,000 more than if you hadn't earned that second 100k in the first place.

You could argue that a proper government's expenses wouldn't be so high because it would be smaller, and thus avert this, but I'm skeptical of that and will have to first be convinced that it would be acceptable to gut the government enough to bring the tax rate to 0 (let's say they get by on donations or something), given the number of poor who already live paycheck-to-paycheck while not paying taxes because they don't have a large enough income. Since these people, and those poorer, would not be able to survive additional expenses (such as any tax at all), your plan either has to accommodate them or discard them. And you're not likely to convince me that the latter is justified.
First of all: I don't want to tax everyone 100%; I want to tax everyone, for example 5%, or 10%.
I think that most people can afford that.

Most can, but many can't. Poverty, and all that - I'm actually pretty well off, relatively speaking, and the only time I have ever had more than 500 bucks in my bank account was immediately after student loans came in. I've frequently had to deal with 20 for 2 weeks. And again, I am in fine shape, financially.

There are people, a lot of them, worse off than that, and paying even an extra 5 to 10 percent of their income in taxes wouldn't be possible unless they received a commensurate raise - if they're employed. And how many of them have to rely on government assistance to get by as it is? Yes, they ought to pay for it, but in the world of choosing whether to buy your son's medicine or keeping the heat on or pay your taxes... What ought to be isn't always what you end up with.

So you have one end of the spectrum that cannot pay their tax dues, any more than a stone can bleed. At the other end, you're slashing the income tax paid by the people that can afford to pay it, and a lot more besides, without any significant difference in their quality of life.

You're not really doing anything for the poor (other than making them even less likely to be able to claw their way out of their current status, no matter how many 16 hour days they and every other member of the family works for minimum wage or less), you're not really changing what the middle class pays either way, you're doing amazingly kind things for people who could care less either way, and you end up with a government whose income can't support its spending without hurting the poor and the middle class even more.

@Nadaka

Ah, crap, I did get mixed up. Bleh, sickness and all that. Addles my wits. The earlier bits of this post are pretty obtuse, too, for which I apologize and hope my intent gets across. A flat tax of over 100% would be nonsensical and it doesn't make sense to speak of some groups having different flat tax rates.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Criptfeind

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Re: Political Debate (U.S.)
« Reply #119 on: September 06, 2011, 05:40:19 pm »

The video looks like every other poorly made conspiracy video, and I thank Criptfeind for attempting to watch it.

Oh god I was not even kidding. This video is great. I just watched a part where the guy asked a IRS Assistant commissioner if people are required to pay taxes, then, right as she was about to answer it switched to another guy who was a commissioner who was talking about why people should pay taxes... Then when he was done it faded to black and letters came up saying "Why didn't he answer the question: Is there a law?"
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