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[Sordid]

I was more making the point that first person dungeon crawls are a dying genre, beyond Etrian Odyssey, Minecraft, and TES younger gamers haven't really had a chance to get their feet wet in it. If you were born in the 90s then there's a good chance your first and last experience with a nonlinear crawl was Morrowind. Bethsoft isn't obligated to try to only please fans who began with Daggerfall by accident of birth but also people who started with Morrowind and Oblivion who have different expectations when it comes to dungeon design.

But they only have different expectations when it comes to dungeon design because Bethsoft and other companies stopped making proper dungeon crawlers. That's just circular logic you're using there.

I think it just turns out that first person navigation is extremely disorienting and has only niche appeal.

Hence why first person shooters are a dying genre.

And you have to remember, when Bethsoft made Morrowind they were still a no-name company with essentially one noteworthy release under their belts.

That is simply false. You're likely referring to Daggerfall, but don't forget their Terminator series. Terminator:Future Shock established them in massive style, it was the first FPS with fully 3D texture-mapped environments and enemies made of polygons instead of sprites. People usually think of Quake, but that came out later. Likewise, T:FS was the game that invented the now standard mouselook control for first person shooters (i.e. not only turning but also looking, and more importantly aiming, up and down). Again, people usually think it was Quake, but Quake came out later and you had to enable that control method via a console command, the default controls were basically identical to Doom's. In T:FS mouselook was the default.
After that of course there was Daggerfall, which was revolutionary and in many respects remains unsurpassed to this day (and it used the same engine as the Terminator games, btw).
They also developed XCar, an ultra-hardcore racing simulator (again using the same engine, which if you think about it is something really rather amazing for 1997). Just look at that car setup screen. In 1997. Good god, even today's so-called "realistic racing simulations" don't offer that level of detail.
Oh and don't forget TES: Redguard and TES: Battlespire, which were also quite well-received.
Due to all of the above, Bethsoft had a massive reputation and Morrowind was one of the most eagerly anticipated games of its time.

It will always be that type of company who are the innovators, which is why indie gaming is so popular right now. I mean, just look at the narrative arc of Chris Avellone. Fallout 2, PS:T,  KOTOR2, NWN2, Alpha Protocol. After PS:T every single one of those is less deep than the last. I think it's just the natural lifespan of a game company. Innovation, refinement, and then over-refinement toward simplicity.

I'm not so sure. Is Alpha Protocol even an RPG? It thought it was some kind of stealth thing like Splinter Cell. I tried to get into NWN2 several times, but the horrifically bad combat and movement systems always put me off, so I can't comment on the plot of it. But Kotor2, that's one of my favorite games of all time and IMO far superior to Kotor1, so I'm not seeing the decline there.

[Omegameep]

EDIT:damn double post

[Leatra]

It's not just that, I always find playing mute characters boring. I can't immersive myself with the character. I really liked the way how the player character talked in Mass Effect, especially if you are playing as a renegade badass

[Mictlantecuhtli]

They also developed XCar, an ultra-hardcore racing simulator (again using the same engine, which if you think about it is something really rather amazing for 1997). Just look at that car setup screen. In 1997. Good god, even today's so-called "realistic racing simulations" don't offer that level of detail.

Holy hell, I must play this.

[fqllve]

But they only have different expectations when it comes to dungeon design because Bethsoft and other companies stopped making proper dungeon crawlers. That's just circular logic you're using there.

Well, that's just a difference of opinion. I mean, I agree with you in that I enjoy a nonlinear dungeon much more than a linear one, but I don't think it's necessarily the proper way to do it. I think most people just can't stand getting lost.

Hence why first person shooters are a dying genre.

Hence why FPSs are linear as hell and full of floating objective markers. :p

That is simply false.

Well, I was just showing my ignorance there because I'd never heard of Terminator:Future Shock. I did not even start playing FPSs until System Shock 2 so I'll take your word on that. As for XCar, that game is so ridiculously hardcore that it is the very definition of niche and I don't think it had much to do with Morrowind's anticipation, which I think largely relied upon Daggerfall being a great game. But my point was that Morrowind was the game that really cemented Bethsoft as one of the giants and a lot of people who awaited that game had not even played Daggerfall.

I'm not so sure. Is Alpha Protocol even an RPG? It thought it was some kind of stealth thing like Splinter Cell.

It's kind of an RPG in the same sense that Mass Effect is an RPG. I agree with you on KOTOR2, but sadly we are in the minority on that. But KOTOR2 was very similar in plot to PS:T and I think the majority of improvements over it are in gameplay. NWN2 was okay, but the plot was kinda generic and the writing only shined through in the dialogue and characters.

[Omegameep]

 I start to play Skyrim after 60 hours of New vegas. I find the dialogues to be really underwhelming without any need for skill rolls(I.E joining the mage collage with only 15 destruction) and most of the factions quest-line ends too quick for me to feel any closure and sense of accomplishment.
Anyway that just my 2 cent.

[bombzero]

It's not just that, I always find playing mute characters boring. I can't immersive myself with the character. I really liked the way how the player character talked in Mass Effect, especially if you are playing as a renegade badass

its hard to properly pull off directed dialogue but it is definitely one of bioware's specialties.
(directed dialogue is the 'proper' term for when you get a few vague options and the PC forms a intricate sentence based on personality.)

Mass Effect is a great idea with the whole resonant effect from your actions, and its ten-fold when you port your character over the series...
however it would have been a better idea to make more noticeable effects in the course of one game, not several. ill have to buy em all for PC one day to get the full experience.

But they only have different expectations when it comes to dungeon design because Bethsoft and other companies stopped making proper dungeon crawlers. That's just circular logic you're using there.

Well, that's just a difference of opinion. I mean, I agree with you in that I enjoy a nonlinear dungeon much more than a linear one, but I don't think it's necessarily the proper way to do it. I think most people just can't stand getting lost.

well thats interesting sordid, that did not occur to me. i miss the good old mind-boggling complex dungeons of old. (Ocarina of Time anyone?)

i don't know, i really do think most AAA titles are going to be utter shit, but insanely popular in a few decades, the 'good' games will be totally forgotten, and MW2 will count as complex.

[Sordid]

I agree with you in that I enjoy a nonlinear dungeon much more than a linear one, but I don't think it's necessarily the proper way to do it. I think most people just can't stand getting lost.

But dungeon crawlers and big open-world RPGs are all about exploration, which by definition involves venturing into the unknown. Expecting not to get lost while doing that doesn't seem reasonable to me. I understand that companies need to cater to customer demand in order to make money and continue existing, but catering to demand that is not reasonable doesn't seem like a sound strategy to me.
Also, you could likewise argue that you enjoy motorbikes with two wheels, but it's not necessarily the proper way to do it. Some people don't enjoy falling over when they stop, so it's okay to make motorbikes with four wheels and that doesn't make them any less proper. But it kinda does, doesn't it? They're not motorbikes anymore, are they?

Hence why first person shooters are a dying genre.

Hence why FPSs are linear as hell and full of floating objective markers. :p

Touché.

Well, I was just showing my ignorance there because I'd never heard of Terminator:Future Shock. I did not even start playing FPSs until System Shock 2 so I'll take your word on that. As for XCar, that game is so ridiculously hardcore that it is the very definition of niche and I don't think it had much to do with Morrowind's anticipation, which I think largely relied upon Daggerfall being a great game. But my point was that Morrowind was the game that really cemented Bethsoft as one of the giants and a lot of people who awaited that game had not even played Daggerfall.

Oh sure, Morrowind was Bethsoft's biggest hit at that time, but it was hardly a no-name company that nobody had ever heard about. If anything, Daggerfall may have damaged their reputation somewhat because of the extremely buggy release, to the point where it was not possible to actually finish the main quest. At all. It wasn't some rare bug that cropped up once in a blue moon, it happened 100% of the time. Which is why I laugh when people complain that Bethsoft's current bugtesting sucks. It used to be way, way worse.

[Duke 2.0]

meh, why the hell is shit i say taken offensively with no actual thought?

The last four words of this sentence provide your answer.

[bombzero]

meh, why the hell is shit i say taken offensively with no actual thought?

The last four words of this sentence provide your answer.

i meant how people look at a sentence i write, see one word in it, and immediately respond in a hostile manner without understanding the context in which the words were said, i.e. what you just did.
anyways, i would prefer that people read my entire post and considered it before writing a response, the one a few pages back apparently irritated people due to the choice of wording in one small phrase, not because of the overall message.

[fqllve]

But dungeon crawlers and big open-world RPGs are all about exploration, which by definition involves venturing into the unknown. Expecting not to get lost while doing that doesn't seem reasonable to me. I understand that companies need to cater to customer demand in order to make money and continue existing, but catering to demand that is not reasonable doesn't seem like a sound strategy to me.

Again, I actually agree with you here but for one thing, getting lost in a series of narrow corridors is explosively frustrating. It is the kind of thing that makes people stop playing games. Even with good navigation skills and a proper mapping or pathfinding method it's still possible to do. When you're spending as much money on a game as Bethsoft did Oblivion you do not want players ragequitting. I mean, remember Arkngthand? I know so many people who never got past that dungeon because of how completely lost they got.

On the other hand, I think Fallout 3 had a good balance between linearity and nonlinearity, even Oblivion's were better (in that regard only), so there's really no excuse for the degree to which they are in Skyrim.

i meant how people look at a sentence i write, see one word in it, and immediately respond in a hostile manner without understanding the context in which the words were said, i.e. what you just did.
anyways, i would prefer that people read my entire post and considered it before writing a response, the one a few pages back apparently irritated people due to the choice of wording in one small phrase, not because of the overall message.

It's because these days casual gamer is essentially a byword for fuckwit. A poor choice of words can elicit those kinds of responses.

[bombzero]

But dungeon crawlers and big open-world RPGs are all about exploration, which by definition involves venturing into the unknown. Expecting not to get lost while doing that doesn't seem reasonable to me. I understand that companies need to cater to customer demand in order to make money and continue existing, but catering to demand that is not reasonable doesn't seem like a sound strategy to me.

Again, I actually agree with you here but for one thing, getting lost in a series of narrow corridors is explosively frustrating. It is the kind of thing that makes people stop playing games. Even with good navigation skills and a proper mapping or pathfinding method it's still possible to do. When you're spending as much money on a game as Bethsoft did Oblivion you do not want players ragequitting. I mean, remember Arkngthand? I know so many people who never got past that dungeon because of how completely lost they got.

On the other hand, I think Fallout 3 had a good balance between linearity and nonlinearity, even Oblivion's were better (in that regard only), so there's really no excuse for the degree to which they are in Skyrim.

i meant how people look at a sentence i write, see one word in it, and immediately respond in a hostile manner without understanding the context in which the words were said, i.e. what you just did.
anyways, i would prefer that people read my entire post and considered it before writing a response, the one a few pages back apparently irritated people due to the choice of wording in one small phrase, not because of the overall message.

It's because these days casual gamer is essentially a byword for fuckwit. A poor choice of words can elicit those kinds of responses.

@1st part. yes, that is all.

@2nd part. i simply say fuckwit when i refer to fuckwits. 

[Sensei]

If being a "casual gamer" necessitates having games squeezed onto consoles that are easy to start, linearizing dungeons, maps and stories, removing major game features (not just talking about skyrim) not to mention marketing 20-30 year old game ideas as new things with shiny graphics, then it sure does start to sound like "fuckwit". 

Ah, but I rant. I should say that Arkngthand wasn't that bad. In fact the more elaborate and difficult to navigate dungeons in Morrowind were some of my favorites. Daggerfall's dungeons made me ragequit sometimes though. The outdoor areas of Morrowind could be frustrating too- especially in the very beginning of the game where you walk slowly. Oblivion as Skyrim, as I've said before, were improvements upon that. I like having a speed attribute so some characters can be faster than others, but the baseline was just too low in Morrowind.

[bombzero]

well they were going for immersion, so not being able to run a mile and fight immediately afterwards, or being able to run at olympic speeds after arriving off a boat from prison made sense to them.
from a gameplay perspective... not so much but it was easy for me to look past it considering all the other features.

oh and a question about consoles, my 400$ computer with a 70$ GPU runs games with better graphics and more stuff on screen than a PS3, PS3 cost about 400-500$ at release.
so why the fuck don't they just build a better damned console, and not overcharge so much for it? (bit of digging around puts the part value of stuff in PS3's on release day at around 100-200$ if they were computer parts of equal power at the time. i refuse to believe some immense extra cost is caused by building it for their console. that means they were sold at a 2.5-5 times markup. when they knew they would sell many consoles anyways right?)

[Rex_Nex]

Oddly, my PS3 version runs much better then my PC version of Skyrim. My PC cost me ~700$ USD