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Author Topic: Games you wish existed  (Read 974057 times)

AzyWng

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7755 on: January 09, 2018, 07:05:13 pm »

I'd just be happy with a Kantai Collection -type game where you actually have significant control over combat (not just waiting for a ship to get heavily damaged and then clicking the return to base button).

I'd rather not subject cute anthropomorphic warships to the mercies of RNG to such a degree as seen in KC.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7756 on: January 09, 2018, 09:35:57 pm »

I would love to play a game that used neural network whatever to always keep the difficulty at an appropriate level for the player.

And more neural network games in general. Are there any like that?
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milo christiansen

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7757 on: January 10, 2018, 01:01:22 am »

NERO? It's a "game" where you train a neural network to perform tasks, namely moving little bots to their goal.
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RAM

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7758 on: January 10, 2018, 01:25:54 am »

I would love to play a game that used neural network whatever to always keep the difficulty at an appropriate level for the player.

And more neural network games in general. Are there any like that?
I heard that lots of racing games speed up the opponents if you are in front of them...
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Reelya

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7759 on: January 10, 2018, 01:50:06 am »

Games with adaptive difficulty are out there, however they have a mixed history, e.g. players work out how it works and exploit it for profit, e.g. deliberately fail hard at one section before a difficult boss, so that the game eases up.

Another issue is that the game active penalizes you for doing too well, by making things extra-hard, which can be unfair for people who played cautiously. e.g. say a game gets harder if you avoid taking damage or if you have lots of ammo, then you're actively rewarded for playing recklessly and penalized for doing things like conserving ammo. In those cases, a hidden mechanism where the game shifts the difficulty can throw off the decision making process where players do trade-off such as whether to use a melee weapon and take some hits, or use up your big gun ammo and avoid damage. Decision-making in a game shouldn't involve hidden variables there that can trip the player up, because a well-designed game should let you be fairly clear about what you're picking between. e.g. if you decide to avoid the damage and use ammo in a fight, then if the difficulty-adjust only responds to damage taken, then it's always better to take the damage and save the ammo for later, even if you have too much ammo. So it throws off the player's decision about conserving "ammo vs health", since there are hidden variables costing more if you pick the "wrong" one.

e.g. say the difficulty-adjust calculates how much total damage you've taken throughout the game, and if it's low, then it makes the enemies shoot more accurately, shoot more often, have better reactions, or be more numerous. Then, players who avoided damage at the start, even though they couldn't pick up the health packs, are penalized later on. The problem here is that such a player was taking a stealth/cautious approach to the game, and then because of that the "difficulty adjust" decided to royally fuck them over by making things really hard, which basically make the stealthy/cautious style less fun. And for the "guns blazing" play-style, where the player takes a lot of damage and uses up a lot of healthpacks, then the game decides that the later enemies nee to be more milquetoast, to ease up on the amount of damage that they can deal to the player. Also, for this player, the change isn't necessarily fun either.

Also, the "difficulty adjust" of this type in a shooter basically guarantees that if you start out with one play-style, it's harder or less fun to switch it up. e.g. if you start with stealthy, then the game ramps up the enemy strength, which ensures that if you get to a part of the game where you need "guns blazing" to get through, you can't do it, since the enemies have been made OP to account for you taking so little damage up to that point, and if you have been playing "guns blazing" and taking a lot of damage, it ensure that there's never a section where you're blocked and have to think about trying out the stealthy approach, or if you do so, it's too easy then, since the enemies have been nerfed to account for how much damage they've dealt out up to then.

Another example is say you save-scummed a lot in the early levels to conserve health and ammo, then the game makes itself "extra hard" to compensate for how "well" you are playing. Then, that play style too is penalized, since the game decides to make you its biyatch for the rest of the play time, forcing you to save-scum even more.

"Reactive difficulty" is basically a bad idea that just sounds good on paper. What's actually much better is to give the player different routes, weapons, tools, options and let them sort it out. Players who want extra difficulty can just try and beat your level with the pistol.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:16:44 am by Reelya »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7760 on: January 10, 2018, 02:08:37 am »

Of course, if nobody knows it's there nobody will complain about it. :P
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Reelya

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7761 on: January 10, 2018, 02:11:39 am »

No that's right, they won't complain about the adaptive difficulty, they'll just say "this game sucks" on the review, because reactive difficulty is almost impossible to get right, and almost always throws the game balance way off. Game balance is something it takes an extreme amount of playtesting to get right, randomly messing with that with an algorithm will fail 99.9999% of the time.

JoshuaFH

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7762 on: January 10, 2018, 02:54:55 am »

Or you can have it like God Hand, and have it be a central game mechanic. Do well and the difficulty meter goes up, do poorly and it goes back down, all represented on screen at all times. It's even related to the rewards system, with more money being given for playing the game when the difficulty meter is all filled up, and less when it's empty.
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RAM

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7763 on: January 10, 2018, 03:15:43 am »

I dislike it because sometimes I want an easy fight, to just play around with stuff, but if I know that every single fight is going to be a challenge, then, well, it can get a bit of a samey experience? I think that Elder Scrolls: Oblivion is a good example of this. If you level, then after a while you are facing the same end-game critters constantly, all your low-power options are useless, and you are probably using a scummy 5-types-of-damage-over-time+invisibility spell constantly because you don't have the mana to take them in a fair fight... And the escort quests, ugh, the Oblivion escort quests at high levels...

What I wish is that more games have multiple difficulty selections. So often I have a choice between a deliberately crippled A.I. that won't use end-game units or large attacks or something, or one that gets large resource bonuses that I can't compete with unless I learn the A.I. and scum the murderous rage out of it by tricking it into chasing random units across the whole map with its entire army or some nonsense... I would like to separately adjust its reactions/rate-of-actions, its unit allowances, its aggression/scouting, its resources... And if you are going to do the "resources=difficulty" thing then by all that is madness let me adjust its minimum income as a unique elements, so that it won't just steamroll my communication limb with a dozen times my income, but will have a nice pension so that after heroically turtling through all of its worst intentions for the better part of two hours while slowly building my forces into the ideal army of my fantasies, I don't roll into their house to find naught but a few small lizards scampering around the vacant remains of their abandoned settlement after they strip-mined the world...
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7764 on: January 10, 2018, 05:43:13 am »

I would love to play a game that used neural network whatever to always keep the difficulty at an appropriate level for the player.

And more neural network games in general. Are there any like that?
AFAIK there has been no practical application of neural networks in games.  For most programmers, neural networks aren't part of the workflow at all.  Unless you're Amazon or some cutting edge science lab, neural networks are more of a curiosity than a useful tool.  That may change in the future.

Your proposed AI would be hard to make.  To train it you'd need an objective standard as to whether its producing appropriate difficulty.  That's not an easy problem since difficulty and player success rate already have a complicated relationship.  Did the player fail there because it was hard, or because they were faffing about not taking things seriously?  Likewise, let's say the AI makes an NPC racer faster and then shortly afterwards the player crashes.  Did the player crash because the NPC was making them feel pressured, or were they going to crash either way?  Its hard to say unless you're setting on the couch next to them.  A neural network needs feedback about whether its doing a good job, otherwise it can't learn.
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Reelya

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7765 on: January 10, 2018, 06:19:20 am »

A better way that they do it is through data collected on many playthroughs, in testing.

e.g. there's a thing called a "heatmap", where you record the map coordinate of every player death over 100's of matches / playthroughs etc. If there's a spot where lots of players are dying, then the designers can use that information. Rather than the first instinct being to lower the difficulty of the encounter however, it's better to add something to the environment. Maybe give the player some sniper ammo, or add more cover in that location. These solution are better, since the player still gets the full encounter, however they now have more options to survive it, so they feel like it's something they decided.

The ultimate good design for an ongoing action adventure game is always that the player feels like they survived it by the skin of their teeth, however the overall rate of player deaths is kept down. This is the real tough balancing act: to make action games that aren't that hard, but they subjectively feel like they are. That's the difference between feeling challenging, and just frustrating.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 06:25:22 am by Reelya »
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Jopax

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7766 on: January 10, 2018, 07:29:31 am »

I'd imagine something like that in a multiplayer game would be cool. Like you have two (or more) teams competing and there's an AI that's fucking with them in various ways. Like a certain number of folks prefer camping a certain spot so the AI starts sending drones to clear the spot occasionally.

You could even frame it all as part of the story, supercomputer is tasked with developing soldiers or something and it's running combat tests to filter out the best and doing shit to the test itself to see how they adapt to a changing situation.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7767 on: January 10, 2018, 09:46:12 am »

AFAIK there has been no practical application of neural networks in games.

Creatures uses a Neutral Network I believe, but I'm not sure if a virtual goldfish bowl counts. Adapting them to a game with actual players and combat and stuff...well, games aren't about solving the hardest problems in Computer Science 60 times a second, just approximately solving them :)
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AzyWng

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7768 on: January 11, 2018, 04:14:13 pm »

No that's right, they won't complain about the adaptive difficulty, they'll just say "this game sucks" on the review, because reactive difficulty is almost impossible to get right, and almost always throws the game balance way off. Game balance is something it takes an extreme amount of playtesting to get right, randomly messing with that with an algorithm will fail 99.9999% of the time.

Didn't Resident Evil 4 feature a hidden dynamic difficulty feature?

And wasn't that game pretty well received?

Even things that are almost impossible can still be achieved, even if there is only one instance of it happening.
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JimboM12

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Re: Games you wish existed
« Reply #7769 on: January 11, 2018, 06:10:59 pm »

Or you can have it like God Hand, and have it be a central game mechanic. Do well and the difficulty meter goes up, do poorly and it goes back down, all represented on screen at all times. It's even related to the rewards system, with more money being given for playing the game when the difficulty meter is all filled up, and less when it's empty.

i wish for god hand 2. do you like the ball buster? (ball busta!)
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