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[nenjin]

It certainly can't be any less, and it could also simply be done differently. All I'm saying is that even if you don't specifically interact with one game feature, that game feature can have other implications that you do feel. We don't have a damn clue how the item metagame will work in D3, but I wouldn't be surprised if, due to the existence of both auction houses (one for in-game money and one for real money), the game will be balanced with the expectation that people are willing to use them, which would affect the development of other features.

Take this for example. I'm starting to think perhaps the most major thing you're going to be farming for is runes. Gear, compared to D2, might actually be fairly rare or at least uncommon by comparison.

Consider that there are now the health and mana orbs to supplement your expectations for monsters dropping stuff, and that there is now "downtime" after some fights. Sound a little more like WoW? How does WoW typically shake out? You get lots of crap weapons and armor for your level, that only a newbie would use, and focus on big quest rewards instead or the coveted "blue drop", using that gear almost the entire time while ~70% of the rest of the gear is vendor trash.

The best items in D3 will be class set items that are soul bound, and they'll all only appear at the very end of the game. (The "end level" content only unlocks once you've reached the level cap, which according to Blizzard will take players one play through of each difficulty level to cap out.)

Compared to D2 where, short of Uniques and set items, most of your gear came from the same bracket of quality and constantly scaled with you. Maybe D3 ends up more like WoW....where you get one super awesome breastplate early on, and virtually everything you see for the next 2 hours doesn't even compare. It's not wise to speculate...but WoW I think provides us plenty of examples of what they could do.

Or Blizzard could make it so that certain items never drop for you, e.g. each character only gets loot from a specific loot table so that they have to trade to get the other items.

Never is too extreme. But I could easily see them doing something like "weapons and armor usable by the player only drop 40% of the time. Weapons and armor they can't use drop 60% of the time."

[Levi]

Or Blizzard could make it so that certain items never drop for you, e.g. each character only gets loot from a specific loot table (or whatnot) so that they have to trade to get the other items.

Haha, that is true.  I doubt I would even notice if they did.   

You could still use the normal gold auction house to get those items. 

[MrWiggles]

I dont get the bitching and moaning.

No mods and online only, are there to keep the games integrity. Its primary reason, is to stop cheating, prevent folks from breaking the econ of the d2 item market. With mods, and offline plays, comes the inability to be sure about the legitancy of such items.

One of the heavier driving elements for d2, was that players sold their d2 items for cash money. This streams line that process, and allows for regulation. On top of it, it does allow Blizzard to get a piece of the action, which  since Blizzard is a for profit company, isn't evil.

[Frumple]

I remember doing 6 man LAN parties playing d2, starting with new characters, for hours, until we finish the game. So much fun. Trying that using internet, spliting a home conection betwen 6 people? Maybe in some freakishly limited portions of some count[ries], at horrendous cost, that is an option, but almost everywhere it is not.

Just to clarify. That sort of thing really isn't an option anywhere, especially not for anyone that's anything below an upper-middle class income. Not at anything approaching decent ping.

--

I realize it won't happen, but I sorta' wish they'd just say up-front the whole online-only thing was a control scheme, just be blunt in that they're trying to push what limits of control the consumer is willing to accept, not (horribly) insult us with the response they gave in that linked material. Double-speak and 'marketing' and crap is a part of business and, yanno', whatever, but it's always kinda' painful to see that sort of bullshit shoveled into the gaming world. It hurts, yeah, it really does. Right here *pats chest*

And yeah, no, the primary reason isn't to stop cheating. That's the line they're feeding us, but that's ridiculous (because it won't work, these people aren't naive, and they know this) and even then, it wouldn't hurt, at all, to simply have an offline mode and no way to import those into MP. Maybe a day, half day, extra work for some lower level code monkey group. I think Blizzard could manage the time and money.

Anyway. Whole thing leaves a sort of bad taste in the mouth that doesn't have to be there. Covering the golden fruit in a thin layer of fecal matter, etc, etc. M'sorta' glad big gaming companies are taking hits here and there in their profit margins. Hopefully th'lot of 'em will collapse and clear the air a bit, for all that it'd hurt the grunt workers in those companies in the interim. Sooner a bad system breaks, the less inertia it has to build up for the wreck, et al.

[Wravburn]

that's the blizzard excuse from the begining when we knew sc2 would not have LAN (whatever the reason they said, its OBVIOUSLY to avoid piracy. Didnt work).

Having two computers side by side, but comunicating by internet, will give you worse ping than LAN. How much, depends on the conection, but most people on the world will have a much worse ping than just doing a LAN, which gives basically 0 to 5 ping (nothing).

In a game as competitive as is SC2, where you usually perform 200+ actions per minute, and where they aim at developing a competitive enough scene like there is in SC1, the no-LAN thing is just killing any chance of it happening. It will never lift off as SC1 did. At 200 APM, something as light as 35+ ping is very noticiable, and can influence on your defeat.

Diablo 3 is not going to be competitive, that's have been said a lot. But it is still super stupid to forbid real LANs, as that is a big part of this kind of game.

I remember doing 6 man LAN parties playing d2, starting with new characters, for hours, until we finish the game. So much fun. Trying that using internet, spliting a home conection betwen 6 people? Maybe in your countly is an option, but almost everywhere it is not.

Specially now, that we are in the age of notebooks, going big LAN parties is easier than ever before. But Blizzard (activision most likely) refuses to give us that pleasure. What a slap in the face of the loyal fans.

It's nice that you bold me, but please bold the 'FOR ME' part as well. *I* don't play on LANs on a competitive level where 30 ping matters.(wonder what the percentage of people is that does) I reached platinum league in SCII with my sub-100 APM, because I don't pad my meters. I played 2vs2 & 3vs3 SCII couple of months ago, all in the same room. You might call it stupid, but as I said, *I* don't see practical differences. In the case I wouldn't be able, it would be an inconvenience yeah, but a slap... If you feel that way, go ahead. If those practicalities ruin the fun for you, I'm sorry. But it is opinion, not fact. But please understand that it's not for all. Does that make me a fanboy? I have played and enjoyed a lot of Blizzard games. Does that remove all sense of critical thinking of me? No.

All I'm saying is that I don't let external changes ruin my fun. A large part of this thread is conjecture and speculation about how Blizzard 'could' fuck up the system. I see brains crushing, thinking how they would fuck up the system if they were Blizzard. In my eyes, it's silly.

What I read in most of these threads, this site and others, gets *my* tin foil hat working. It's relatively minor in this thread, but present, but I see a lot of half-informed reasoning, reaching the conclusion that the only option is to boycott->pirate the game. When people say that item trading will make it pay2win, ignoring the fact that item-selling(and duping) was present in DII, ignoring the lack of competitve 'win', and saying that they shall pirate it, I just see a crooked moral validation for piracy.

[Krelian]

Actually I bolded it that way to remark what was I talking about. In the post I clearly said "maybe for you, but..." so indeed I was replaying as knowing it was your case and your oppinion. Sorry if it caused any confusion.

Actually, I find sc2 a game too easy to be really competitive (as in profesionally). Beside the lag problem caused by no-lan, the game itself is just too much automated; probes goes on their own to mine after just build, too much spells with autocast. "Intelligent casting" (having 5 templars on a group, and only the closer one uses the storm; try that in sc1). This is why people doesnt need to be focused on the game to fare well; unlike sc1.
But anyways, that's not the topic here.

And now going back to topic, yes, I do feel it is a slap in the face, for me at least, damaging my game experience so they can protect their product of piracy for a couple of days. AND if at least they admited that's the reason. But saying that is so they protect my single player experience (¿?), or so I dont have to make a new char when I dedice to play with people. WHAT THE FUCK. That IS a slap in the face. Treating us like we were idiots.

[Wravburn]

I'm sorry if it does damage your gaming experience.

Well, the problem with all that marketing drivel is that they only talk about part of truths. The most positive parts of the truth. That's why it's marketing drivel. I'm not easily getting riled up by that sort of talk. It reminds me of the outrage about the Marylin Manson-trailers for Dragon Age. Totally different departments of the company, and sadly not always finetuned to each other, connected only through the 'suits'. But that's in all forms of (entertainment) industry. The incredibly silly legal letters from Bethesda to Mojang about "Scrolls" is another thing like that. Will it change my perception of Skyrim? Not really. (If I had taken every comment in the games industry seriously, you would have found Peter Molyneux somewhere covered in rotten eggs. Or George Lucas for that matter.)

The facts? The always online/LAN issue will make certain scenario's more difficult. If the remaining scenarios doesn't leave you enough 'game' to enjoy, don't buy it. I don't see any personal insults in that. Or a need for a boycott. Or a need to pirate. Just a simple question: "Will you enjoy it enough to validate the price?". Possible answers:  "Yes, I will buy and play it." & "No, I will just play some more Dwarf Fortress." It's the question I ask for every piece of entertainment I procure. Is that looking at it too simple? Maybe, but it gives me more enjoyment, and less headaches.

[G-Flex]

I dont get the bitching and moaning.

No mods and online only, are there to keep the games integrity. Its primary reason, is to stop cheating, prevent folks from breaking the econ of the d2 item market. With mods, and offline plays, comes the inability to be sure about the legitancy of such items.

No it doesn't, because modding your single-player game/character has fuck-all to do with the integrity of the server-side game and characters.

One of the heavier driving elements for d2, was that players sold their d2 items for cash money. This streams line that process, and allows for regulation. On top of it, it does allow Blizzard to get a piece of the action, which  since Blizzard is a for profit company, isn't evil.

The fact that item-selling is so popular to begin with, in my opinion, points to a problem with the game itself. It means that people would literally rather shell out a few bucks for an item than actually play the game such that they get it. If people are choosing to give up gameplay, getting the rewards from said gameplay from other sources (e.g. an auction), then something about your gameplay is fundamentally unfun.

If people are going to be buying/selling things en masse anyway, then sure, making a legitimate and safe environment for it is okay, provided the company running the game doesn't abuse it. However, the fact that D2 item sales were so popular to begin with points to a flaw in the game, and it bothers me that rather than actually critically examine their gameplay paradigms, they'd rather feed into them, not realizing that D2 was a loot-hunting game, and that maybe if people would rather buy items for a game about finding items than actually find them, something, somewhere, is very, very wrong.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I read that article, and felt my two years of hope fade away into dust. Thank you, you've officially made me lose all hope in the video game industry.. :[


SIGH. A fucking auction house.

[Darkmere]

What I mean to say is that the game having an auction house (and the fact that auctioning/selling items is such a requested feature) implies certain things about the game design. That's all. If the game is built with things like auction houses and item-selling in mind, then the game design will reflect that fact; it'll likely be just as, or likely even more, item-grindy than Diablo II was.

Ah, then I was misunderstanding. That does raise an interesting point though, I'll comment on gear further down.

With a legitimate trading system they control and they profit directly from, they now have the reasons to manipulate many more aspects of the game. Plenty of people are telling you it's not a leap at all. You may not agree with it, but labeling it as just patently absurd to dismiss it is, how shall we say, less than honest?

I mean come on. People couldn't have written a more cooky and bizarre scandal than what happened in EVE. Game developers manipulating their game and their players for profit is not unprecedented, at all.

Disagreeing with you makes me a liar? I don't follow?

Also, not familiar with the EVE story, link?

Take this for example. I'm starting to think perhaps the most major thing you're going to be farming for is runes. Gear, compared to D2, might actually be fairly rare or at least uncommon by comparison.

Ah, someone finally mentioned actual game mechanics. Runes will definitely be in demand, but I've also read that they can be crafted/upgraded, and they don't shatter on removal from a skill. The demand seems like it will be stable, but I can't imagine after making 6(?, I think it was 6) different rune effects for ~18 skills per class, that runes will be a dire rarity.

Consider that there are now the health and mana orbs to supplement your expectations for monsters dropping stuff, and that there is now "downtime" after some fights. Sound a little more like WoW? How does WoW typically shake out? You get lots of crap weapons and armor for your level, that only a newbie would use, and focus on big quest rewards instead or the coveted "blue drop", using that gear almost the entire time while ~70% of the rest of the gear is vendor trash.

Barb's Fury drain, witch doc's mana orbs, sorc's quick-regen Arcane Power, monk's combo points, and (if it's still in) the combo bonus system all seem designed to avoid downtime as much as possible. Walking over any loot automatically picks it up, individual drops mean you don't have to focus on grabbing everything on the ground before other people can get to it.

Yeah there's a lot of crap loot in wow, but I'm not sure how it's supposed to be worse than the avalanche of cracked sashes that /players 8 tweaker sorcs piled up. As you were leveling in D2, the best shot at good gear came from bonus drops that automatically rolled the first time you killed an act boss. Kinda sounds like quest loot doesn't it?

The best items in D3 will be class set items that are soul bound, and they'll all only appear at the very end of the game.

Compared to D2 where, short of Uniques and set items, most of your gear came from the same bracket of quality and constantly scaled with you. Maybe D3 ends up more like WoW....where you get one super awesome breastplate early on, and virtually everything you see for the next 2 hours doesn't even compare. It's not wise to speculate...but WoW I think provides us plenty of examples of what they could do.

I do remember reading set items were back, but I haven't heard that they were the ultimate endgame goals, or even how powerful they were. Source?

Gear didn't directly scale with you in D2. There were a few item mods like +x AR/level, but the ones I remember were tiered just like any other mod. That was what made dualmax rares the holy grail of weapons, the possibility of a crap roll for a rare mod on a rare item could make the whole thing junk.

I also have no idea what superawesome loot you found in wow that stuck with you for two hours. elaborate?

Or Blizzard could make it so that certain items never drop for you, e.g. each character only gets loot from a specific loot table so that they have to trade to get the other items.

Never is too extreme. But I could easily see them doing something like "weapons and armor usable by the player only drop 40% of the time. Weapons and armor they can't use drop 60% of the time."

That would actually be a ridiculously good drop rate. Go start a S/S barb in D2 and tell me how many of the drops are stuff you'd want to use.

[nenjin]

Disagreeing with you makes me a liar? I don't follow?

Also, not familiar with the EVE story, link?

No, it means I think you're not being intellectually honest (although at least you're not being rude) by not treating what we're talking about as even valid.

Here's a link.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/100/1002527p1.html

Eve scandal in Google will earn you dozens more. That scandal about is actually SEPARATE from THIS scandal:

http://kotaku.com/234863/scandal-hits-eve-online

Ah, someone finally mentioned actual game mechanics. Runes will definitely be in demand, but I've also read that they can be crafted/upgraded, and they don't shatter on removal from a skill. The demand seems like it will be stable, but I can't imagine after making 6(?, I think it was 6) different rune effects for ~18 skills per class, that runes will be a dire rarity.

I.e., with more stuff added to your traditional Diablo loot drop tables, actual gear might move up the scale in terms of what you find. Increasing its value.

Barb's Fury drain, witch doc's mana orbs, sorc's quick-regen Arcane Power, monk's combo points, and (if it's still in) the combo bonus system all seem designed to avoid downtime as much as possible. Walking over any loot automatically picks it up, individual drops mean you don't have to focus on grabbing everything on the ground before other people can get to it.

Sounds like WoW to me, if guys dropped health orbs. I'm going on what I've read as 2nd hand comments of beta-testers, that there's actual downtime. Outside I can see it being just as streamlined as running around an open zone of WoW. I see the dungeons being a lot more like wow, where its sectional and you blow through all your stuff on each encounter before moving on to the next. More tactical fights and less "running into a room to whack 5 zombies and click gold before moving on to the next" If they intend this to be their new mini-MMO (which is pretty clear) downtime will only become more true as you factor in groups of players seeking more meaningful challenges.

Yeah there's a lot of crap loot in wow, but I'm not sure how it's supposed to be worse than the avalanche of cracked sashes that /players 8 tweaker sorcs piled up. As you were leveling in D2, the best shot at good gear came from bonus drops that automatically rolled the first time you killed an act boss. Kinda sounds like quest loot doesn't it?

The amount of really shitty white loot dramatically dropped off after the first Act. It was virtually non-existent by Act 4. While while yeah, the quest loot was the best, it was eclipsed by random dropped stuff by the next act, at least. I remember most of my replacements either came from a) whoring the merchant for act appropriate gear or b) taking the non-quest, non-boss upgrades as they came. Considering sometimes your reward wasn't even something you would use to begin with, I relied a lot on the decent scaled loot that dropped throughout the game. (I never went into too far into harder difficulties.)

I do remember reading set items were back, but I haven't heard that they were the ultimate endgame goals, or even how powerful they were. Source?

My source didn't take the time to link his source, but I don't have any reason based on my reading his posts that he was inventing stuff. You can read Zehdon's post here. (#6) http://forums.elementalgame.com/399111/page/1/#replies

Gear didn't directly scale with you in D2. There were a few item mods like +x AR/level, but the ones I remember were tiered just like any other mod. That was what made dualmax rares the holy grail of weapons, the possibility of a crap roll for a rare mod on a rare item could make the whole thing junk.

Again, not talking about the "200+ hour Diablo experience" but the single play through experience, gear in each act scaled. A unique from Act 1 could be totally outclassed by a random drop in Act 2. It didn't scale with you, but the mass amounts of loot the game threw out did scale, and you were essentially hoping to find one of the new item types with the stats you wanted. Only until you get into the replays did it become pure stat whoring, but, even in the next level of difficulty there was another tier of weapons above the end tier of your first play through.  Hell, I remember when starting a Nightmare level playthrough, one of my first new acquisitions was a white dagger whose base damage outstripped the weapon I had taken into the end game. And I was playing a paladin!

That would actually be a ridiculously good drop rate. Go start a S/S barb in D2 and tell me how many of the drops are stuff you'd want to use.

Considering the drop list probably wasn't written from the individual player standpoint, I don't know if that's relevant. They've had ten years and a multi-billion dollar incentive to re-think it.

I also have no idea what superawesome loot you found in wow that stuck with you for two hours. elaborate?

Lol, Burning Crusade release man. That says it all. The first set of blue items you earned there blew away any of the goofy ass green shit that dropped in Hellfire, and challenged a lot of the Molten Core level gear.

[beorn080]

That would actually be a ridiculously good drop rate. Go start a S/S barb in D2 and tell me how many of the drops are stuff you'd want to use.

WANT to use and ARE usable by are two different things. Imagine if that S/S barb had 60% of the drops class restricted to other classes or other items that it couldn't effectively use.

[Darkmere]

I've never played EVE, what did the developers gain by helping players cheat?

The only info I could find from a Blizzard employee regarding class-restricted armor sets is:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/bashiok-on-class-specific-items-part-two/

they don't exist and weren't planned to ever exist.

Some weapons are class restricted though, so I suppose if sets made it back and contained class-restricted weapons, the set could only be completed by X class.

I think the loot stuff is a matter of perspective. I played D2... a lot... came back to it over multiple years. I enjoyed planning out and trying character builds with gear matchups, but I only played with what I found or made. I wouldn't consider a character ready to play until Act IV Hell.

I also spent most of my WoW time doing heroic dungeons or raiding, so nothing much about D3 reminds me of "WoW" as I remember it.

I dug around a bit and found several postings of the official Blizzard AH FAQ, this one is in the most readable font.

http://www.diablowiki.net/Auction_House_FAQ

Transactions are a flat fee that is not determined by item value, the company gains nothing by manipulating item rarity, only volume of sales. I think, since there's an alternative to the RMT AH (the in-game-gold AH, not using any AH) the profits blizzard makes rest squarely on how many players buy stuff there.

[Trapezohedron]

As soon as I heard it's online mode only, my interest has waned. I am really disappointed of them taking that stupid route. It's like they're ripping and tearing off every single gameplay feature that made the second game one of the best games ever to be created.

And all this rune-based skill/stat talk is making this game all the more repulsive to me.

Why couldn't they just do things right?

[Krelian]

As soon as I heard it's online mode only, my interest has waned.

Why couldn't they just do things right?

AC-TI-VI-SI-ON