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Author Topic: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion  (Read 7490 times)

Bauglir

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2011, 03:51:37 pm »

The problem is that it's very, very easy for the DM to asspull your ghost into destruction, with nothing you can do about it. It's easier to make an indestructible phylactery than it is an irresolvable backstory (that will be allowed), at least in my experience.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Grek

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2011, 04:16:02 pm »

If your DM is going to asspull something to destroy your character, no amount of prep work will save you. And an irresolvable backstory is pretty easy to do: Your character was, prior to their death, a member of the noble house of Foo, which was destroyed by the usurping Bar clan. You seek to destroy the line of Bar entirely. Only then will your character's lust for revenge be slaked and be able to rest in peace.
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Virex

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2011, 05:10:17 pm »

If your DM is going to asspull something to destroy your character, no amount of prep work will save you. And an irresolvable backstory is pretty easy to do: Your character was, prior to their death, a member of the noble house of Foo, which was destroyed by the usurping Bar clan. You seek to destroy the line of Bar entirely. Only then will your character's lust for revenge be slaked and be able to rest in peace.
Due to a combination of infighting and natural reasons, there's only one member of the house of Bar left. He's a poor and disowned rouge who gambled away all his possesions. You kill him during your first encounter.
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Bauglir

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2011, 05:29:20 pm »

It's true that you're fucked no matter what if the DM puts his mind to it, but a lot of DMs have a psychological barrier about asserting Rule 0 in order to screw over a character. There's far less of such a problem with doing it to story lines, at least in my experience, which means that a DM finds it a lot easier to say that a series of preposterous coincidences happen to doom you than to say that no, this guy totally has a spell that beats all your wards. At least in theory. I could be wrong.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

mission0

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2011, 05:34:01 pm »

I'm pretty much dead set on being a lich so I would stop trying to sway me to do otherwise. Also the main thing that is attracting me to the Lich is the idea of a Phylactery because a normal undead who is reduced too 0 hit points pretty much die without a real easy way of pulling them back which is a bit of a problem for a player character.
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Virex

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 05:36:41 pm »

I'm pretty much dead set on being a lich so I would stop trying to sway me to do otherwise. Also the main thing that is attracting me to the Lich is the idea of a Phylactery because a normal undead who is reduced too 0 hit points pretty much die without a real easy way of pulling them back which is a bit of a problem for a player character.
Well if the DM is set on killing you, you'd better prepare a few spare characters, in case he "accidentally" ruins your  Phylactery as well. 
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mission0

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 05:40:20 pm »

I'm pretty much dead set on being a lich so I would stop trying to sway me to do otherwise. Also the main thing that is attracting me to the Lich is the idea of a Phylactery because a normal undead who is reduced too 0 hit points pretty much die without a real easy way of pulling them back which is a bit of a problem for a player character.
Well if the DM is set on killing you, you'd better prepare a few spare characters, in case he "accidentally" ruins your  Phylactery as well.

Yeah he's pretty much planning to kill at least one character early on since this campaigns difficulty is set pretty high. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with my phyactery... I was thinking of making it looks like a potion vial or something since I am an artificer and not many people would find it odd that an artificer has a potion vial. Also it may have a label of some sort on it with something like explosive runes... although having something that explodes on my Phylactery may not be the best idea.
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Virex

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011, 05:45:04 pm »

Make it a scarf and let one of your fellow players (the "that guy" if your group has one and you know what I mean) wear it? That way you're sure he's the first to die.
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Bauglir

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011, 05:49:28 pm »

Okay. First thing. When you get the chance, create a hollow adamantine cone tall enough for you to hide in. Then, cast Shrink Item on it and make it clothlike. Enjoy your new hat, which will suddenly expand whenever you are exposed to an anti-magic field, giving you hella good cover and, incidentally, blocking line of effect between you and the AMF, allowing you to safely teleport away or something. Excellent defense against the most common DM attempts at caster shutdown.

Next, a word of advice: never carry your phylactery on your person. If you do this, it's little better than not having a phylactery at all; anything that destroys your character can, presumably, crush a piddly little phylactery. So basically, you get (at best) one extra life when a creature that doesn't know you're a lich just takes your stuff as loot. Then you respawn adjacent to that creature, naked, presumably without any infusions you spent before being killed (because you were unable to go through the steps required to regain them). Round 2 will likely end with your swift demise, and the creature will destroy your phylactery thereafter.

No, far better to store your phylactery in an extradimensional space or in some place it will never even be searched for (much less found), and then plant several obvious (and non-obvious) decoys both on your person and in any lair you might inhabit. I recommend at least 3 "phylacteries" in each, at least one of which should be exceedingly well-protected and one of which should be disguised as a mundane item (but use Nystul's Magic Aura to give it an aura of necromancy, or whatever a phylactery has). Use Misdirection or a similar spell (via UMD) to make divinations on your phylactery redirect to one, and only one, of these decoys.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

mission0

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2011, 05:54:11 pm »

Make it a scarf and let one of your fellow players (the "that guy" if your group has one and you know what I mean) wear it? That way you're sure he's the first to die.

Heheh, I chuckled at that one. I'm also tempted to give it the "called" magic item property. that way when that person does die, BAM it is back in my possession.

Also Bauglir you make a good point, although if I am summoned naked next to my enemy I do have some of those spell like abilities which would be pretty useful in a fight. I changed one of the orbs of force to a Dimension Door spell.
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Bauglir

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2011, 06:02:53 pm »

True. If you feel you could get your phylactery back and escape effectively, then you don't need to worry about it so much, but the thing you have to be wary of is that there are no rules for creating a new phylactery. So it's crucial never to let it remain in the hands of somebody who knows its value.

Called would, in theory, be an excellent option, since it would allow you to check up on your phylactery at any time. The problem is that a phylactery cannot be a magic item, IIRC. You could, however, store it inside a hilt hollow in such a weapon or something, and it would quite arguably be brought back with the weapon (since things stored inside the weapon have a tendency to be treated as part of it; clear that with your DM first, obviously).
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Virex

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2011, 06:09:16 pm »

The problem with placing it in extra-dimensional space is that nobody can really protect it. It leaves you to the whim of the DM who at any moment can come up with some reason why it was destroyed or taken over. For example, if you were to store it in the Negative Energy Plane, chances are that a vampire finds it and draws the only logical conclusion for a random object lying around without any reason. At that point you're essentially his slave and a killer DM like the one you're saying you have will exploit this to no end...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:16:05 pm by Virex »
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kaijyuu

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2011, 06:15:10 pm »

This sort of stuff is why my group stopped playing d&d and switched to more free-form variants. Easy to make a lich or whatever without having tons of rules and tons of things to exploit.

The game is supposed to be about roleplaying, not min-maxing.

[/soapbox]
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Grek

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2011, 06:16:53 pm »

Due to a combination of infighting and natural reasons, there's only one member of the house of Bar left. He's a poor and disowned rouge who gambled away all his possesions. You kill him during your first encounter.

Obviously, you find out the setting before hand (this one appears to be Ebbron) and sub in some setting vital organization for House Bar. House Lyandar or Cannith, in this case. If possible, insure that one of the other PCs is using options that require the house that you want dead to still exist.
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mission0

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Re: D&D Lich Artificer Discussion
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2011, 06:19:01 pm »

Yeah hiding the phylactery is going to be interesting for sure, I will have to think long and hard on this one.

and yes the setting is an Eberron one, a particularly war like one at that...
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