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[Orangebottle]

Pfhahaha... if there were any "skillshots that could've won the teamfight" then nobody would have been trying to surrender. Glad you know this game better than I do though!

There are plenty of skillshots that can win teamfights. Blitz's Q. Ahri's E. Shen's taunt. To name a few.

Well I guess you're the only one who's allowed to have the opinion that something's "totally unfun" then? Or maybe I should just insult you for thinking a Zilean Soraka bot isn't fun to play against.

No. And zilean-soraka isn't fun to fight at all; you literally can't do anything against them. You initiate? Zilean throws timebombs all over the place and ults himself. Normally you'd be able to wait until he's out of mana, but he has fuckin 'raka. He's ridiculously unkillable. Seriously, fuck anyone who runs zilean soraka bot ever.

[Errol]

I'd argue that with an ideal game, there would be no need for the surrender button since you would always have a real chance to run it back. I dislike this concept of fluff. It is not fun to play out a basically won game for 10~15 minutes, it just feels like a chore. It is not fun to play out a basically lost game for 10~15 minutes, since you may try your very best but your hopes get crushed time after time. (Should a comeback happen, it does of course feel amazing. But don't kid yourself, that's a minority of matches.) As soon as the major challenges are cleared, the game becomes significantly less fun, as one side just tries to avoid mistakes and the other usually can't expect to run it back, unless they have a greatly superior late game team comp, the winning side makes some mistake or a really amazing play happens.

It's like getting comboed down in a fighting game, where the enemy is going to kill you if he optimally executes his combo and you're just gambling on him dropping an input. That's not fun, especially if you're on the receiving end of it. The fun part about a fighting game is anything else - mindgames, mixups, great plays, the spacing game and so on. All of that is in League as well, minus the mixups.

Solutions to that problem might be a) reducing snowballing - then it wouldn't be League anymore, but honestly, your victory condition should not be tied to anything else. A health bar should ideally just be that, a health bar. b) forced rubberband mechanics - those are just bad. c) Making the game more unforgiving, so that mostly-victories turn into actual victories far sooner. This absolutely should not mean "Win lane, win game". A game should ideally end when all the interesting decisions are made, right now I think you get too many chances that don't really mean anything. Huge design can of worms - will skew balance towards the early game winners and probably alienate a lot of people that care about clutch comebacks. Or, d), keep everything mostly as it is - after all, it's worked out for League. Game has become huge.

This is what Dominion does well. There is little snowballing going on, and winning does not make you win more all that much.

[Sharp]

I wish they put health block bars on everything instead of just champions so people can realise that I need help killing the big wolf, not the 2 little ones that can be 1-shotted. Would make it easier to select targets for last hitting as well.

[Angle]

There's an option for that, I think.

[Yodamaster]

You have to judge on a game-by-game basis which are worth surrendering and which aren't. There's "always the chance to come back" but sometimes that chance isn't existent, and then surrendering isn't a bad idea. When it is there, I think you should keep playing, but if they've just been consistently outplaying you and it doesn't look like that will change, you can surrender if you want. There's no black or white to it. If you try to surrender once but it gets voted down, don't immediately start the vote again. Keep playing until the next major event, such as them winning a teamfight or taking towers before proposing the vote again. If it gets voted down again, just keep playing. You're obligated to actively engage in the game until it's officially over. Now you don't have to be 100% serious, but you shouldn't be feeding on purpose just because your team won't surrender. Happy mediums, everyone.

[Nistenf]

Do we have a list (like a google docs thingy) of all the Bay12 LoLers or should I just create one?

[Errol]

Heh, I only tend to surrender after getting multiple inhibitors shot down, or after an ace where it's obvious they'll win before we respawn. Kill count isn't really much of a criterium.

[penguinofhonor]

Is there a solo queue way to get around AOE initiation comps? Cause I just played against Leona, Ashe, Amumu, Gangplank, and Annie.

If we initiated as a team, we got aced in seconds. If we tried to pick off anyone, someone would get hit by an Annie or Amumu Q and then we'd be facing a 4v5 while 4-5 of their initiates were still up. If we spread out, they grabbed someone with Amumu/Annie/Leona and either we tried to converge on them and got blown apart in the AOE or let that person die and lost a tower cause we definitely couldn't initiate the 4v5. If we tried to split push, they'd group up and force a baron or something that would get us together, and then we'd get the AOE treatment again.

I've been on the winning side of this strategy, and I still can't figure out how you're supposed to beat it without premade levels of coordination. It was just really sad this time, cause we had a great comeback during midgame, grabbed every dragon and one baron, and still ended up completely unable to do anything during any of the team fights or skirmishes.

Also I'm in Silver IV now. If you're below that, I'm looking down my nose at you. If you're above that, I'm tilting my head back real far so I can look up my nose at you.

[Sharp]

I faced a similar enemy team, mumu, galio, kayle, quinn and morgana, I went jungle Xin and bought a shiny QSS > Mercurial Scimtar so whenever they engaged on us I would just cleanse and ult them all away and then we can pick em off while their ults are down.

Leona can be a bitch to face against, she is great for stopping someone but she doesn't provide any healing or buffs for allies so you have to ignore her and focus down the ad carry, especially if it's a squishy no-escape one like Ashe.

Annie is just evil with her burst but is pretty easy to kill without tibbers.

Someone who can split people up like Xin is good vs the AoE comp, or you can get Olaf who just laughs at the CC and chases down the squishys, though in my case also helped that we had a Lulu, Cho'Gath, Mordekaiser and Varus so we could easily just get me to split them up and then counter-engage and turn fights from 5vs5 to 6vs4.

Olaf > CC though and pretty easy just to build tanky/cd and just kill their damage dealers and he normally splits enemy team up just because some people try and protect ad carry while others are trying to focus your ad carry.

[frostshotgg]

That kind of comp will always win in low level soloqueue because it has a ton of cc, not because its AoE

[Errol]

Facing Leona is problematic. Remember, once her rotation is down she isn't threatening anymore, in fact she has a chunk of bonus AR/MR at that point. In fact, if the Leona is good, she probably has enough regen to shrug it off. Poking down her AD carry is a good idea - but as soon as you engage the cards are in Leona's hand, so don't do that until you're absolutely sure.

This is how I think Leona fares against some random supports I have matchup experience against.

Soraka - problematic MU. You need to burst down Soraka or else you're not going to do much. Infuse is free against any sort of approach of Leona's save for Solar Flare sniping. Her sustain means she'll usually win trades, and the burst heal counters your attempts at killing but she's weaker early so abuse her around levels 2 to 4. Consider bringing Ignite.

Sona - like Soraka, minus all the tools of Soraka that make killing things problematic. She has considerable poke and can also sustain, but Sona is pretty free before 6, can be sniped rather easily even afterwards, is really squishy, is in Zenith Blade's range if she tries to poke anything and so on. One of Leona's favorite enemies to face. Be mindful of Crescendo and don't underestimate her, though.

Taric - not that much of a problem. Should he dazzle your carry, get on theirs, you're a bigger threat. Then get on Taric when he tries to abscond. He has a heal while you don't, but he loses the offensive game - which is kind of what he's picked for, apart from the auras - so this should be a pretty even matchup. Get some sustain in case you get bedazzled.

Lulu - no heals on either side = this lane is risky. Lulu obviously has superior poke and can prevent you from striking back, but she needs to be careful as well so that she doesn't get pounced on, because no sustain. Bully her as long as Pix is down, bait Pix and then go for it, bully her if she doesn't have enough mana to keep the harassment up. You're going to take a lot of things on your chin anyway, so you should bring the sustain and take care of your ally. If Lulu is teamed up with a good poking carry, though, you will probably regret your choice of support.

Alistar - same deal as with Taric. If he gets on your AD carry, you get on his. Ali can be more dangerous offensively than Taric - he also has more mana costs than you. Abuse that and play a bit more offensively, provided that you can take it and your AD carry backs you up. You absolutely need to respect his CC abilities, he can mess you up hard when you're out of position and he knows it. Obviously, don't try to kill him unless he asks for it.

Blitzcrank - can be tough. Expect the rocket grab, avoid the rocket grab, avoid the rocket grab that comes when you're trying to disengage, ward the bush. Take the fight to him. Unlike most other supports he isn't all burst and no sustained, and he's a tanky little bugger. But his close-up CC is lacking and usually he doesn't really want to grab you. Stay at high health, just in case.

Janna - can be annoying. Free damage if you hit her with a Zenith Blade, though, and also free if Eye of the Storm is down, so get down to baiting that bugger. She doesn't hurt, either - so altogether you like seeing her, although you might not get many kills.

Thresh - has no sustain. Yes, you can't really kill him or his carry and he's dangerous if he manages to engage on people - but no sustain plus plenty of opportunities since he wants to get out and get souls equals not really that big of a threat.

So, generally - Leona really likes it if you have no good GTFO options. Leona dislikes heavy poking comps. Leona dislikes it if the opponent can win the trades she engages, so once she's behind she'll have a bit of a hard time, but that goes the other way as well. Respect Leona from 2/3 - 6, and don't move so predictably that she has an easy time getting you with Sunlight. Taking control of the brushes never hurts. Know her damage - a basic combo from her alone can be around 40%, and with her ally chiming in things will hurt. Know that she deals most of that damage over three seconds and that a lot of it comes from innate and W, both of which allow for counterplay. Know that Solar Flare means that a good Leona can always engage you if she wants to, and that she's scary when she gets her ult as a result. Any lane with Leona in it is a kill lane.

[Knirisk]

That kind of comp will always win in low level soloqueue because it has a ton of cc, not because its AoE

This. Low level soloqueue has little knowledge of appropriate positioning, so if you get the CC on the right targets (AOE CC makes it easy), every teamfight is pretty much won.

Unless the fed bruisers are doing the most damage, in which case, you fuck off and peel for your carry and hope to God they know to stay in the back line.

[penguinofhonor]

Ugh, that was the worst game I've played in months. One player asks for mid, then our Lux calls it and locks in. It's looking great already!

Apparently the original guy who called mid is a plat smurf, so he goes support and spends the whole game harassing Varus and Lux. Lux feeds super hard and then afks in response to Zilean harassing her.

And I'm jungling Shyvana against Jarvan. I'm really tired of having to pick from the god tier junglers (Xin, J4, Vi, Hec) or basically give up the game. They say picks don't matter as much in lower elos, but those guys are all still stupid OP in low elo because they have enough CC to feed their lanes and enough damage to carry themselves. They're pretty much the perfect balance for team utility in high elo and stomping in low elo.

Pick Shyvana? Jarvan gives all the enemies' lanes a two kill advantage. Pick Nautilus? You're going to die every single time the enemy Vi sees you. Pick Udyr? Aww, cute. Hecarim is like you but with an initiate. Pick Pantheon? Xin is you, but with sustain and a longer gap closer. Also he scales better.

[Jopax]

Go for a match of ranked after a few weeks. I'm fourth from the bottom. Team captain is silent, bans are handed out, we're on our last ban, he bans Taric.

The other team gets FP and takes Shen. Ok, it's not ideal, but it's manageable. First guy locks in Thresh (even if the second dude called support), so the other guy takes Morde (I said I wanted top, so he says he'll go mid). They take Singed and Morgana. My turn to pick, I call top once more before locking in Renekton. At witch point the guy above me picks Kayle and says top. When I say I claimed top like two times already to which he responds that he gets to go top because he is above me.

Some people, some god damned people.

[Virex]

Is there a solo queue way to get around AOE initiation comps? Cause I just played against Leona, Ashe, Amumu, Gangplank, and Annie.

If we initiated as a team, we got aced in seconds. If we tried to pick off anyone, someone would get hit by an Annie or Amumu Q and then we'd be facing a 4v5 while 4-5 of their initiates were still up. If we spread out, they grabbed someone with Amumu/Annie/Leona and either we tried to converge on them and got blown apart in the AOE or let that person die and lost a tower cause we definitely couldn't initiate the 4v5. If we tried to split push, they'd group up and force a baron or something that would get us together, and then we'd get the AOE treatment again.

I've been on the winning side of this strategy, and I still can't figure out how you're supposed to beat it without premade levels of coordination. It was just really sad this time, cause we had a great comeback during midgame, grabbed every dragon and one baron, and still ended up completely unable to do anything during any of the team fights or skirmishes.

Also I'm in Silver IV now. If you're below that, I'm looking down my nose at you. If you're above that, I'm tilting my head back real far so I can look up my nose at you.

I'm not an expert on this, but intuitively, if you cannot win team fights, then avoid them. Ward the hell out of the jungle, farm and wait until they do Baron or Dragon so that they're out of position, making it easy to burst down the squishies.