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[Greiger]

I say let invaders dig.  And a proposed solution from one of the DF talks get put into place.  Give dwarves the ability to rebuild walls underground that look and behave like natural stone.  Or simply allow constructed walls to be "engraved" (or more like anti-engraved) with an extra bolder if constructed walls will be weaker than natural walls.  And then once that's in allow unrevealing of terrain.

We can already rebuild walls that get dug out, just needs the ability to make it look and behave like natural stone with a little extra effort.  Hell I think that was part of the jist of the origonal "rewalling" suggestion anyway.  And unrevealing terrain serves no purpose outside of aesthetics.

EDIT: I want them to dig, but I don't think it should be done in secret. Dwarves are natural diggers, so have goblins dig slower, also don't hide their digging.  Keep it revealed the whole time so you can divert your military to intercept them at the breach.  The Chinese could detect digging enemies during a siege, Dwarves who live with the rock their entire lives and to the constant sound of tunneling should probably be able to know exactly where the digging invaders are located, so no need to fog of war their tunnels.

Goblins need to be able to invade your fortresses.  And honestly the goblins just sitting around outside trying to starve you out is not entertaining even if it had a chance of working.  Allowing them to dig is the only reasonable way to do that to any normally built dwarven fortress.  There should never be a way to keep goblins from reaching a part of the map via some method or another they can employ against you.  They should even be able to dig into HFS if that's where the easiest to reach dwarves are located.  Of course I'm all for an init option.  But if you are going to have that option on you might as well cut out the middle man and turn invaders off completely.  Without invaders having the ability to dig it is downright trivial to have a defense there is nothing an invading force can overcome.

[G-Flex]

Goblins need to be able to invade your fortresses.  And honestly the goblins just sitting around outside trying to starve you out is not entertaining even if it had a chance of working.

It would be if resource management in DF meant anything. Right now, it doesn't sound like it would be fun, but keep in mind that trade and management of resources are so simplistic right now there's not much way for them to be fun or interesting under any circumstance.

There should never be a way to keep goblins from reaching a part of the map via some method or another they can employ against you.   Of course I'm all for an init option.

I agree, but I don't know if an init option is a good idea. One cannot assume that making something optional will always make everyone happy or make the game better without consequence. Sometimes, a game feature is so consequential, or so relevant to other features, that it becomes more and more difficult for an option to make sense.

Of course, if invaders dig, material strength for walls should probably start mattering. I'm sure some stone and ore is harder than others, and this is obviously true for metals as well. Of course, sand is another, stranger matter entirely, for which suggestions have been made.

One problem is that mining in DF is really easy. In the real world, mining out large areas takes a lot of time and effort and cleanup, but this isn't very much the case in DF. The problem here is that even if goblins digging a tunnel into your fortress is a good thing, it would be preferable (in my opinion) if it weren't as easy as mining is today; it should be a long-term project meant to seriously compromise your defenses. Of course, you could just wall it back up, but that's a good reason to make constructed walls less tough than natural stone (I imagine it's easier to dismantle a mortared-together wall than it is to mine a tunnel through solid rock).

[Jimlad11]

The ability to build "Cavern walls" would be great. It would be nice to tear out all the old, poor quality engravings and replace them with engravings from your new, legendary engraver.

Overall, I am in favour of invaders digging, as long as it could be repaired easily. I would not like to see my dining hall tunnelled into and trashed  But as long as I can repair/reinforce afterwards, it would be fine.   

[Areyar]

The ability to build "Cavern walls" would be great. It would be nice to tear out all the old, poor quality engravings and replace them with engravings from your new, legendary engraver.

Overall, I am in favour of invaders digging, as long as it could be repaired easily. I would not like to see my dining hall tunnelled into and trashed  But as long as I can repair/reinforce afterwards, it would be fine.

Not sure about  building virgin rock wall, but a designation to remove engravings (smooth again?) would make more sense.
Would you be happy with tunnelers if you could engrave any built walls? (or maybe only those built from blox)
wait...this isnt the suggestions thread.. ;P

[Neonivek]

I don't understand why dwarves need an underground stand-in for everything that exists above-ground

Ohh you want a reminder?

Because people complained that they needed the site finder to find everything. In otherwords the underground is a stand in for everything that exists above-ground so that people have a stand in for everything that exists above-ground. So no matter where people are they would have access to everything.

That is why the underground is what it is currently.

Honestly I am surprised at this point the underground isn't a paradise.

[PTTG??]

Overall, I am in favour of invaders digging, as long as it could be repaired easily. I would not like to see my dining hall tunnelled into and trashed  But as long as I can repair/reinforce afterwards, it would be fine.

...Or you could just send troops out and kill the invaders before they reach it. Anyway, invaders need not be so stupid. They would only take the shortest route into the fortress. Just put your most precious structures deep and secure.

[Little]

When did goblins become immortal? 

[Neonivek]

When did goblins become immortal? 

They always lived forever.

Their lack of need to eat however is relatively recent.

[thvaz]

I don't understand why dwarves need an underground stand-in for everything that exists above-ground

Ohh you want a reminder?

Because people complained that they needed the site finder to find everything. In otherwords the underground is a stand in for everything that exists above-ground so that people have a stand in for everything that exists above-ground. So no matter where people are they would have access to everything.

That is why the underground is what it is currently.

Honestly I am surprised at this point the underground isn't a paradise.

This. People complain so much and Toady is so eager to please them that the game is losing its identity. One thinks it is too much realistic, other thinks it is too much fantastic. One likes the mineral scarcity, the other wants every mineral in existance in one single spot. Some think DF should be like Minecraft, others think it should be like Sim City, others think it should be like Dungeon Keeper, and all of them complain the game development isn't going in the direction it should go.

[G-Flex]

I understand people complaining about certain things, like "dwarves need to build buckets, so they need some form of wood", but I think complaints like that fail to see the real cause. The problem in that case, for example, isn't "dwarves need wood to make buckets, but don't have access to above-ground wood, so they need wood below-ground"; it's "dwarves need something to hold water, but they don't have access to above-ground wood, so they need some other form of container". Actually solving problems from a Dwarven point of view, in the long term, is a much better solution than simply giving them what everyone else has.

[monk12]

As regards the "sieges are ineffective against dwarves" discussion...

Part of the point of the Caravan Arc is that dwarven fortresses will not be able to be completely self sufficient. Your fortress will need to import other things, and your trading partners will presumably care enough about your exports to come to your aid. Personally, I think that as more complex social interactions amongst your dwarves are implemented sieges will get more interesting, with "siege mentalities," traitors, faction politics, and so forth being strained by the siege. The reason fortresses can be self sufficient right now is because the rest of the framework isn't there- a player can't reasonably expect to maintain a fortress if they must rely on trade. This is why the Caravan Arc is super exciting, if somewhat boring in its implementation.

Just about the entire point of the Army Arc is to make sieges themselves more interesting- make siege weapons work right, introduce enemies that will avoid walking through your trap hallway like cattle to the slaughter, adding new siege equipment/creatures that can destroy constructed (but not natural) walls, and of course the external political scene that sieges effect- the decisions of your allies, aid from the rest of your civ, sieges that can have endings other than total annihilation of one party or the other, etc. The reason this isn't in yet is... well, mostly it is just waiting on the Caravan Arc. As Toady has said, there is a lot of low-hanging fruit right now, so it just comes down to what bit of DF goodness gets added next.

[Dsarker]

I, personally, want to see the goblins send in the kids they've snatched first, to find where the traps are, and then have those kids disarm them. If they're dwarves, be prepared for major tantrum spirals.

[G-Flex]

Part of the point of the Caravan Arc is that dwarven fortresses will not be able to be completely self sufficient.

I would like to believe this, but what evidence is there of this in the development plans? I mean, I can believe it when it comes to mineral distribution, but when it comes to actual needs (food, drink, and such), I don't recall anything being mentioned along those lines.

I mean, yeah, I'd love for this to be the case, but I don't know of any existing plans that would significantly affect something like how easy it is to farm without external input.

[Dsarker]

Presumably that is because making the fortress not be self sufficient without the ability to survive from Caravans would be counter productive.

[ffaerie]

Multiple Z-level assignments brighten my day! Keep it up, Bay12!