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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1204795 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2011, 05:14:00 am »

There is something attractive about the idea that the world is entirely messed up before you even start playing and it is your job to essentially fix it.
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Asmageddon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2011, 05:31:48 am »

Considering that they do not have technological progress and environment protection agencies, it can only be in three states: Broken, breaking and half-broken.
And as we all know, players usually tend to only lead it to further destruction.
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #122 on: May 14, 2011, 05:45:02 am »

1. What about necromancers will allow them to raise things? Will they make some sort of magic object which simply raises any dead in the area? Will they use some sort of nebulous power thats inherent to them? Will they be somehow able to raise themselves if they die, such as a Lich.
We already know all this from the devlog. They discover a secret, either directly from a death god, or indirectly through a slab engraved by a previous necromancer. If lichdom were going on, I imagine he'd have mentioned it.

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2.Will the necromancers make only one kind of dead or will there be multiple types with different duties, something like a ant nest. Will there be ghouls which scavenge the dead, living meat wagons to carry them, hulking flesh golems for combat, living pipe organs broadcasting the arrival of undead armies, etc, or just a wave of zombified woodland creatures?
There's just the one type, a creature raised. I'd imagine they can be zombies or skeletons depending on how the corpse is. There are certainly none of the silly warcraft-type fleshcrafting stuff you're talking about. I'm rather glad that this is the case actually. Such things make the whole procession rather farcical.

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4. Now that we have the general raise dead curse effect, will it be possible that this effect is placed on artifacts or items? Ie, that Shiny blue sword found down in the Curious structures near the bottom of the world might have the unfortunate effect of raising your enemies to try to kill you over and over.
From Toady's answers in the last thread:
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Eventually, but not yet.  I imagine anything that comes of artifacts etc. will use the interaction system.

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Also, as an unrelated thing, I really want an option to "Raise former adventurer", like the reclaim fortress option but to bring a dead adventurer back as some sort of wraith. Because everyone knows that, with truly awesome heroes, death only makes them angry.
Personally I would rather, if we get such an option, to make violent egress from the underworld. But I'm not sure if this will ever be possible, and it doesn't seem compatible with DF's current idea of what happens when you die. Perhaps when gods get some more love, it'll become clear. It would make sense if gods make new bodies for their followers to wear in the afterlife (as YHWH is said to do in Revelations), and it would then be possible for a suitably awesome adventurer to leave said afterlife somehow. But it shouldn't be easy. You'd have to be massively armipotent and perhaps have some sort of magic as well (secret of rebirth?). Certainly a fun possibility, though not any time in the near future I'm sure.

You know what I am truly excited about? The fact that this release is probably going to be more the rule than the exception. I'm betting that every one of the next few "new content" release cycles is going to have a fun element in it that Toady is going to enjoy coding (and that we're going to enjoy him coding) to help get him through what is obviously a necessary-but-tedious set of releases.

We get crypts, and dungeons, and night creatures in this release. I am eagerly anticipating what we're going to be getting in the next few releases too.
Personally, I am in far greater anticipation of the actual caravan arc stuff, and the army arc stuff after it. This fancy undeath is all well and good, but I'd rather get economic and military stuff to play with sooner, and leave magic and slightly more compelling undeath until after the current dev page is taken care of. I do understand that this is the main portion of what Toady does with his time, and he does what he enjoys, and I don't begrudge him that. But I certainly don't want him to take time out for things like this for my sake, and I'd imagine I'm not alone in my preference there.

That said, there is some significant potential to do interesting stuff with city-dwelling vampires and similar, and I might very much enjoy what happens with them once cults and organizations get implemented and we can have a proper sub-society of shadow rulers. But I don't imagine they'll be much like that in the near future.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 05:59:22 am by Cruxador »
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Psieye

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2011, 06:19:57 am »

Necromancy is being coded in because it was a natural sidetrack to having catacombs. The caravan arc needed better towns. This included catacombs which then get filled with bodies. But having lots of corpses around with no use is boring, so undead needed to be coded. This led to the Curses and Secrets frameworks being set up. If Adventurer mode gets the new undead, why can't Fortress mode? So now Toady is coding in undead sieges.

This isn't the magic arc. This is Toady putting in another placeholder-y feature in to plug the hole of "so what do we do with all these catacombs?"
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2011, 07:11:17 am »

This isn't the magic arc. This is Toady putting in another placeholder-y feature in to plug the hole of "so what do we do with all these catacombs?"

I think most of the undead features aren't placeholder-y. In fact Toady only mentioned one - the fact every necromancer becomes a tower-living sociopath. This would change with the personality rewrite.
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zwei

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2011, 07:40:19 am »

Well, Reading about raised bodz parts, I have one concern:

Combat clutter. I can easily imagine my dwarven soldiers kept busy by raised severed body parts while "main" force kills them off.

Psieye

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #126 on: May 14, 2011, 08:52:14 am »

Well, Reading about raised bodz parts, I have one concern:

Combat clutter. I can easily imagine my dwarven soldiers kept busy by raised severed body parts while "main" force kills them off.
Now you can experience what the goblins feel like when a dogsplosion-in-a-cage chaffs them while your dwarves kill them off.
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #127 on: May 14, 2011, 09:38:10 am »

Considering that they do not have technological progress and environment protection agencies, it can only be in three states: Broken, breaking and half-broken.
And as we all know, players usually tend to only lead it to further destruction.

Actually, if you're talking about environmental factors, humanity had only fairly limited impact upon the climate up until the Industrial Revolution.  (As in, they'll screw over their own farms or temporarily kill off all the fish in their bay, but the ecological collapse was limited to striking down the civilization that caused it.) Back before our population exploded with the use of high-efficiency farming and medicine and our energy came from manual labor or animal power, we were at most limited to gradual deforestation of local areas and the soil erosion that followed. 

The global ecosystem is robust enough to adapt to a Medieval Stasis world almost indefinitely, provided no concerted large-scale deforestation efforts take place.  Evolution exists specifically to adapt to change, after all.  It's the rate of change that industrial societies can produce, and the strain of a population of billions, each demanding greater and greater numbers of resources that causes problems.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Rift

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2011, 10:27:44 am »

So our own wardogs coming back to kill us in dwarf mode, As of the newest[13th] devlog post.
I just love progress.
Looks like the necromancer will be a part of the siege, actively raising people.
Also necro-towers are in towns, as a part of em. Neat.
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #129 on: May 14, 2011, 10:37:00 am »

I just want to say the daily dev_log updates are a brilliant thing! Thanks.
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Asmageddon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #130 on: May 14, 2011, 11:21:13 am »

Considering that they do not have technological progress and environment protection agencies, it can only be in three states: Broken, breaking and half-broken.
And as we all know, players usually tend to only lead it to further destruction.

Alatulcy, if you're tkinlag aoubt eaeotrvnminnl fcotras, hnimtauy had olny flriay litemid ipacmt uopn the catmile up utinl the Iadstirunl Rvotluioen.  (As in, tehy'll sercw oevr teihr own frmas or tlpomrariey klil off all the fsih in teihr bay, but the eclgoioacl cllpsaoe was lmtieid to sniikrtg dwon the ciaztoviliin taht cesuad it.) Bcak bfroee our ptiolaupon eeldopxd wtih the use of hgih-eeinfccify firmnag and midicnee and our eergny cmae form maunal lboar or amainl pewor, we wree at msot lietmid to gduaarl distfrtoeaoen of lcaol aears and the siol eiosorn taht flolweod. 

The gbaoll essyeotcm is rsubot eogunh to aapdt to a Mdieavel Sasits wlrod asomlt ilfiteniedny, pvdieord no crenetcod lgrae-salce dosotrfaeiten eotfrfs tkae pcale.  Eooitluvn etsixs sicecallfipy to aapdt to canghe, aetfr all.  It's the rtae of cngahe taht isurtiadnl seeicitos can pudcore, and the saritn of a puatloipon of boinllis, ecah didnnmaeg geetarr and gaeetrr nemrbus of rescuores taht cesuas pelbomrs.
I meant necromancy. I believe it is a considerable threat to the environment.
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Aquillion

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #131 on: May 14, 2011, 01:44:47 pm »

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In getting zombies to appear in the tower, I had to make towns generally respect multiple entity populations (for instance, many different groups of bodies raised from various places), which was something I had to do for this release anyway, so shops will be a little faster once I get back to the market stuff.
With this...  would it be possible to easily add an init option or worldgen parameter to re-enable dwarves embarking on top of other people's sites?  I'm curious whether this would make the game respond 'properly' now if dwarves try to embark on a dark fortress or somesuch, making for something interesting.

Actually, would it be possible to allow the dwarves to embark on 'hostile' sites in general in the main game, as long as there's no friendly population there?  It seems like "deal with the undead, then settle in their tower" could be a fun (and challenging) way to start a fortress.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #132 on: May 14, 2011, 01:47:38 pm »

Regarding zombies ripping off the dog's head.  Did they claw or bite it until it came off, or is there actual dismemberment in wrestling now?
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Neoskel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #133 on: May 14, 2011, 02:03:02 pm »

So, since corpses can be raised without their heads, how do you (at least temporarily) kill a zombie/skeleton? Will a complete corpse zombie still die when it loses its head? How bad off does a corpse have to be to be un-raisable? Especially when animated limbs/etc. go in, how do you kill those?

Hehe, now i have a mental image of a player cremating (once controllable fire is in) every corpse in an evil biome and the ashes rising anyways.  :o
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 02:05:12 pm by Neoskel »
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #134 on: May 14, 2011, 02:04:41 pm »

Regarding zombies ripping off the dog's head.  Did they claw or bite it until it came off, or is there actual dismemberment in wrestling now?

This got my attention too. Though Toady didn't said what kind of zombies were attacking the dog. It could be zombie tigers, for example.
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