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[EmperorNuthulu]

In fairness, the moths eat our clothes Glyph.

[GlyphGryph]

Some moths do, not all of them! And to act like that is the case is just plain unfair!

[RedKing]

Colored contacts to change from brown to green, or to get a more intense blue/green/whatever, that's fine. Vain, but fine.

Contacts which glow in the dark so you can pretend to be a vampire, or deliberately mimic having mismatched eyes, or so you can have a blown pupil like Marilyn Manson....that's going a bit far, IMHO.

And with the amputation thing, I'm not talking cutting off a finger, I'm talking people who remove a perfectly good, working hand so they can have a stump. See here for examples, if you really want to. There's also a pic on that site of a guy who made himself a real-life Wolverine. I'm presuming his claws aren't made of admantium and don't retract.

FWIW, I don't make value judgements on that whole subculture. I'm totally WTF about it, but I wouldn't say they're twisted or mentally ill or anything. I guess I think it of as in the same category as the guys who made the Bacon Explosion or that German dude with the mega-crossbow. But for people *not* in that subculture, I'm like "What the f**k is wrong with you?"

So for the tooth gap thing -- If you're doing it because you're a diehard body modder who wants to look that way (or you're born that way), that's one thing. If you're doing it because it's hip and trendy....you're gonna regret that in a few years when the trend switches and you're left looking like David Letterman.

[Sowelu]

Plain old corsets back in the old old days still count AFAIC.

[scriver]

The kind of lenses I was talking are a whole lot more dangerous than "common" contact lenses. To eyes and sight, of course. Not life threatening in any way, but yeah, it's in the "endangering the body and risking permanent damage for superficial reasons" category.

The whole point of my second post was to say that it wasn't very unusual or goth, though.

Oh, and I personally think people should be allowed to do whatever they want to their bodies, even things I think is really stupid. Well, when we get into the region of psychological compulsive self-harming stuff it's a bit less clear, but as a general rule, it's true

[GlyphGryph]

So, RedKing, your only actual problem with the tooth thing is because you think they are doing it for the wrong reason - doing it for, say, confirming to the broader culturally enforced standards of beauty would be fine, but doing it for something that is merely "trendy" is not ok? Body modification is fine as long as the ideal is "normal"?  It doesn't matter what the person who gets it thinks is attractive, simply society as a whole or some subculture they are part of?

And honestly, to keep it OT, I want to know why gapping your teeth is any more wrong than getting braces to straighten them.

The kind of lenses I was talking are a whole lot more dangerous than "common" contact lenses.

Wait, are we talking like plain colored contacts (which are not any more dangerous when weird colors or even patterned, for those who seem to think otherwise) or, like, Sclera lenses or something? Yeah, Sclera lenses can be bad safety wise if your not careful (though if you ARE careful and work with them properly they aren't bad), though god damn would I love a fitted pair for Halloween and for some of my theater stuff. Still, I don't think it's right to compare "risky" to "purposely modifying the body". I'm not sure about the relevance of the contact discussion at all, honestly.

[Earthquake Damage]

And honestly, to keep it OT, I want to know why gapping your teeth is any more wrong than getting braces to straighten them.

Tooth-straightening is the established norm.  That's all that needs to be said, really.  You can extrapolate/infer the rest.

[Zrk2]

Just remember - Common sense is surprisingly uncommon.

[RedKing]

So, RedKing, your only actual problem with the tooth thing is because you think they are doing it for the wrong reason - doing it for, say, confirming to the broader culturally enforced standards of beauty would be fine, but doing it for something that is merely "trendy" is not ok? Body modification is fine as long as the ideal is "normal"?  It doesn't matter what the person who gets it thinks is attractive, simply society as a whole or some subculture they are part of?

And honestly, to keep it OT, I want to know why gapping your teeth is any more wrong than getting braces to straighten them.

Yes, my problem is that they're doing it for the wrong reason. If you're born with a gap in your teeth, that's one thing, and I applaud models who decide to stay natural. But for someone with straight, normal teeth to go and deliberately have a gap put in, because it's a fleeting new trend in fashion? That's effing stupid. Getting a gap fixed I don't fault people for, because they're trying to remove something that could disadvantage them socially. If someone wants to 'conform', I'm not going to condemn them--most people with a defect don't want the defect.

I guess I'd put in the same category as deaf people who are hostile towards any advances in restoring hearing, and would refuse to allow their deaf children to receive cochlear implants. Destigmatizing a defect is one thing. Celebrating and holding it higher than "the normal" is where it gets warped.


To use myself as an example, I'd LOVE to have a normal ribcage. I would never fault someone with a p.e. from having the surgery to correct it. (The main reason I don't is that it's pricey and hurts like hell for a long time). I also wouldn't fault someone for just living with it. But if, through some weirdness of fashion, it suddenly became fashionable, I would be facepalming like crazy if guys were going out and deliberately getting their chests caved in, because "it's the IN thing now".

These modeling/ad agencies are supposedly using the gap-tooth look to cash in on a "rejection of fake beauty". So what do you call it if someone has to go get orthodontic surgery to have a gap put in? That's no more "natural" than getting braces to fix a gap.


The reason I brought up the body-mod subculture is that I've known some of those folks. It's a totally different way of thinking about the body and beauty. For them, it's not about conforming or rejecting to standards of beauty, it's using their own bodies as an artistic medium for self-expression. Kinda like tattoos, only instead of ink they're using their own flesh. There's also a certain engineering geekdom to it, in doing some extreme modifications just to see if they can. So for them, something like gapping the teeth isn't about being hip, it's more like accessorizing a costume.

[GlyphGryph]

But why is a tooth gap a "defect" except insofar as it is rejected by society?

Those deaf people, yeah, that's an issue - because being deaf is an actual, legitimate impairment! But your claim that a gap tooth is in any way in the same league, instead of being honest in that artificially gapped or close together front teeth is SOLELY an issue of vanity, that's a joke.

I assume you'd be okay with, say, Jews getting nose jobs to have more demure noses (but not the other way around), black people whitening their skin to better fit in (again, but not the other way around), and you've made it quite clear you find it acceptable for people with different colored eyes to get matching contacts (but never ever the other way around, that's just too far!)

Do you realize how incredibly insulting that is? To come on here and tell people their superficial features aren't worth emulating, because its not "mainstream"? Because having a feature that is well within the realm of normal is the same as having a "defect"? Because it is.

[RF]

Fresh prince of Bel Air etc.

[RedKing]

But why is a tooth gap a "defect" except insofar as it is rejected by society?

Those deaf people, yeah, that's an issue - because being deaf is an actual, legitimate impairment! But your claim that a gap tooth is in any way in the same league, instead of being honest in that artificially gapped or close together front teeth is SOLELY an issue of vanity, that's a joke.

I assume you'd be okay with, say, Jews getting nose jobs to have more demure noses (but not the other way around), black people whitening their skin to better fit in (again, but not the other way around), and you've made it quite clear you find it acceptable for people with different colored eyes to get matching contacts (but never ever the other way around, that's just too far!)

Do you realize how incredibly insulting that is? To come on here and tell people their superficial features aren't worth emulating, because its not "mainstream"? Because having a feature that is well within the realm of normal is the same as having a "defect"? Because it is.

Please don't put words in my mouth or assume my motivations. No, I wouldn't particularly think all that highly of Jews getting nose jobs or blacks trying to "pass". Being Jewish or black ISN'T A DEFECT. But I also wouldn't necessarily condemn it because people have certainly done that in the past. Not out of vanity but to escape real discrimination and persecution. Last time I checked, there was no Krystallnacht against the straight of tooth. 

Heterochromia technically is a defect (from a genetic standpoint), but it's not one that's particularly problematic. In fact, it could even be beneficial socially. But yeah, I have a problem with people faking it with colored contacts, because their motivation is basically "Ooh, look at me!" Some people have a third nipple. If you do, then hey...it's a conversation starter. But if you go out and have plastic surgery to add a third nipple, just so you can say "Hey, I have a third nipple!"....

Having a pronounced gap between the front teeth is a somewhat common condition. So is an overbite. So is an underbite. Neither are examples of what a healthy human face is *supposed* to look like. And I'm not judging by beauty standards, I'm judging by population phenotype averages.

I guess it boils down to: there's nothing wrong with being different from the physical norm. However, deliberately trying to be (physically) abnormal is its own form of useless vanity.

[GlyphGryph]

So, to summarize - It's okay to alter yourself to meet the normal, but not to alter yourself to look like what you want to look like?

I guess it boils down to: there's nothing wrong with being different from the physical norm. However, deliberately trying to be (physically) abnormal is its own form of useless vanity.

I fail to see how getting a gap tooth is different from, say, a boob job or an ear piercing. Are you okay with those?

I see RF has edited out his little barb, so I won't comment on that other than to say it wasn't missed.

[scriver]

I believe that what RedKing is saying is that he can understand that people want to change themselves to fit into the norm (even though he doesn't like it). It differs from people changing themselves to fit outside the norm in that while the first has social bemefits, the other is just misplaced vanity. Unless I got it wrong?

Some people have a third nipple. If you do, then hey...it's a conversation starter. But if you go out and have plastic surgery to add a third nipple, just so you can say "Hey, I have a third nipple!"....

I digress. "Hey, I payed 5000 for a fake third nipple!" would be an awesome conversation starter

[RF]

So, to summarize - It's okay to alter yourself to meet the normal, but not to alter yourself to look like what you want to look like?

That's not the issue at all. The issue is that these people are altering their bodies to conform to some passing trend. It'd be like someone going "lol Jewish noses are so in" and me going and getting my nose broken and set like that to be a part of the trend.

If you want to "make yourself more beautiful", go right ahead. (I find plastic surgery as a whole vile, but whatever.) But it's ridiculous to try to alter yourself to match a passing trend. (Something else I find moronic, following trends.)