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[Leafsnail]

i mean, if the problem is freeing the prisons, death sentence immediately and with no stops to all demonstrated homicides and pedophiles, a clear distinction. the morality or ethicity of the thing is secondary, a problem is not ethic or moral, a problem is a problem. One must apply the best solution to solve it.

I guess the fact that you'll end up executing hundreds of innocent people every year is also secondary.  And that applying the death penalty under the current system in the US is generally more expensive than lifetime imprisonment due to the massive legal fees involved.

On the other hand, a civilian might feel a tad despaired being conscripted and all, but a little bit of brainwashing "you'll be fine, were sending you conscripts to an easy zone, filled with !!FUN!! and to relief the military" would certainly calm them down, and they'd go through training. Obviously.

This kind of propaganda was effective when Britain entered WW1.  It hasn't been since then and it isn't now.

[lemon10]

4.) I'M? an asshole? Being unconstitutionally made a penal soldier is basically a death sentence imposed unlawfully. Wow I guess that person should accept death for some oil company, stuck up politician huh? Nope, I'd just be pissed that the government will have at that point shredded any pretense of being constitutional.

Sorry I called you a asshole, your post just made me RAGE. But me calling you a asshole was out of line.

1.) Violent criminals are such nice guys? 

No, they aren't, but mostly they aren't suicidal either.

2.) You do know how criminals think? (How exactly? I'm curious what you think they think like.)

I assume they don't want to die, otherwise they would have resisted arrest. They won't go "hey, ill go shoot up some people randomly which will surely get me killed", if there were like that they would have already died.

3.) "These are just examples:"

Meh, fair enough.

[ed boy]

i mean, if the problem is freeing the prisons, death sentence immediately and with no stops to all demonstrated homicides and pedophiles, a clear distinction. the morality or ethicity of the thing is secondary, a problem is not ethic or moral, a problem is a problem. One must apply the best solution to solve it.

I guess the fact that you'll end up executing hundreds of innocent people every year is also secondary.  And that applying the death penalty under the current system in the US is generally more expensive than lifetime imprisonment due to the massive legal fees involved.

I'm going to need you to back that up with numbers/sources.

[Jreengus]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

I pretty much just googled it and picked the first result.

[Leafsnail]

I'm going to need you to back that up with numbers/sources.

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411625_md_death_penalty.pdf

Seems quite thorough, and it makes a conservative estimate that a death sentence the cost of a case (an average of $1.9m more per case).  Lifetime without parole lasts on average 30-40 years, and costs around $40,000 a year, which would make it cheaper overall (you're gonna have to research the source for this yourself - I see this statement made quite a lot, including by pro-death penalty sites, but can't find the source.  Argh).

[scriver]

as in those with small crimes (i.e. stealing) then telling them army or jail,then it happens all the time.
but Serial killer and rapist are the last thing the army needs.

The British used to do this all the time. It was their principle method of recruiting short of German mercenaries. It also produced soldiers who couldn't think for themselves, which was good in a pitched European battle but crippling in wilderness fighting. The US army used to contain a lot more petty criminals, but I think Reagan's administration reformed the army.

Are you really saying criminals are too stupid to be able to think here? Because I have absolutely no idea what else it could mean.

[Truean]

4.) I'M? an asshole? Being unconstitutionally made a penal soldier is basically a death sentence imposed unlawfully. Wow I guess that person should accept death for some oil company, stuck up politician huh? Nope, I'd just be pissed that the government will have at that point shredded any pretense of being constitutional.

Sorry I called you a asshole, your post just made me RAGE. But me calling you a asshole was out of line.

1.) Violent criminals are such nice guys? 

No, they aren't, but mostly they aren't suicidal either.

2.) You do know how criminals think? (How exactly? I'm curious what you think they think like.)

I assume they don't want to die, otherwise they would have resisted arrest. They won't go "hey, ill go shoot up some people randomly which will surely get me killed", if there were like that they would have already died.

3.) "These are just examples:"

Meh, fair enough.

Right, and what you're not getting is that you're still in survival mode, because you haven't been placed in a situation where you're guaranteed to die because someone's a jerk. Once you put me in this crap, I know I'm going to die no matter what I do so I'm taking you with me. Can't live, might as well make the ones responsible pay. Once you are a penal soldier you WILL die.

Crazy thing about humans being crazy, when you figure out someone's forcing you to die unnecessarily, like being cannon fodder walking artillery distraction a human shield to assholes who think it's "justice" to use you as one a penal soldier (wait those were all the same thing), you do one of three things:

1.) Cry in fetal position,
2.) Get all contemplative about the life you're losing,
3.) Somehow deny reality and tell yourself you'll get through it somehow, (you won't...).
4.) Revenge if you can figure out who's making you die.

I don't play fair now, so why would I then? "But Truean, that was four things and you said three, can't you count har har har." I know. I don't play fair remember? Why yes I did pack you 30 days of food rations Staff Sargent.  Did I say 30 days? I mean 5 days with the rest of the packages weighted to look like they're full of food. Have fun starving, sergeant prick.

Case in point, if I think I'm dying and you're the reason, you're my target. Enough penal soldiers will think like this that it's gonna be a problem you can't handle.

Leave me nothing to hold onto but a trigger (including my own life) and I'm pulling it...

Suicide doesn't enter into it; the penal soldier system is killing me. That's homicide.

[Max White]

Hmm, well let's try to put scale into account. Let's say that instead of armed service being for serious offences, it is al alternative for lesser offences. There are drug addicts and petty criminals out there who would be given fines to pay, but can not afford it, so serve jail time instead. Why not force these people into a year of paid, armed service, where they will
a) Get there ass kicked into learning some discipline.
b) Earn some cash to get off the ground and get a real life.
c) Maybe even enjoy military life and go on to be respected soldiers.

Arm murderers and rapists? No, let's not. Send drug addicts to boot camp? Why not? And really, the entire 'penal soldiers are cannon fodder' mentality is based on a rather old way of seeing human rights and military tactics. These days it would be met with protest, and the military would be better off treating it's conscripts with respect.

[RedKing]

This thread...why does it still breathe? 

[Phmcw]

Because no one has taken ethic 101?

[Angel Of Death]

This thread...why does it still breathe? 

It's secretly a vampire.

A VAMPIRE FROM THE FUTURE!

[ed boy]

Hmm, well let's try to put scale into account. Let's say that instead of armed service being for serious offences, it is al alternative for lesser offences. There are drug addicts and petty criminals out there who would be given fines to pay, but can not afford it, so serve jail time instead. Why not force these people into a year of paid, armed service, where they will
a) Get there ass kicked into learning some discipline.
b) Earn some cash to get off the ground and get a real life.
c) Maybe even enjoy military life and go on to be respected soldiers.

Arm murderers and rapists? No, let's not. Send drug addicts to boot camp? Why not? And really, the entire 'penal soldiers are cannon fodder' mentality is based on a rather old way of seeing human rights and military tactics. These days it would be met with protest, and the military would be better off treating it's conscripts with respect.

There are issues with that.

Firstly, putting someone through boot camp is a rather large investment in them. Nobody would be very happy to see a large portion of the military budget go to training them to be soldiers if they don't actually spend a significant time in military service. The duration of the process would be a big factor.

Secondly, there are requirements for joining the military. Apart from the psychological requirements, there are physical ones. Lots of people would be physically unsuitable for military service.