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[Truean]

I get the distinct impression someone saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXoekeDIW8

and played halo wayyyy too much if you think this is remotely a good idea. Life is not a game. These theories never work because none of them are practical and also all are horridly wrong.

Forget all the stuff we're talking about here, just privatizing some prisons has led to massive abuses, including but certainly not limited to 14 year old juveniles being systematically raped by guards who had not had proper training or background checks (because that costs money and hey, we've got a bottom line to worry about in  for profit prison). And this is just from mismanagement.... All of this unwillingness to pay for the basic institutions of society has led to its slow collapse. Unregulated private industry has plunged us into a second great depression and now you want to give it even more control over government than it already has? 

Now we're talking about giving people who don't play nice with others (read kill) or like us military grade hardware to play with? Heck why not do it for our vulgar entertainment? That worked well right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHxn8mTpAJU

Even if you basically manage to say slave labor should be part of "justice" which you simply cannot do without crossing the moral event horizon of evil, it will come back to bite you.

Slavery is a great idea, for people who do things we don't like...?

Land of the free, and... well it was til the crazies took over....

[Nikov]

As for penal companies, I'll just say that even Soviets (who used something that could basically be called "slave labor") didn't implement this. There is nothing more stupid than giving away a weapon to someone that has every reasons to hate you and sending him somewhere where you can't control him effectively.

Code: (Order 227) [Select]

The Supreme General Headquarters of the Red Army commands:

1. Military councils of the fronts and first of all front commanders should:

a) Unconditionally eliminate retreat moods in the troops and with a firm hand
    bar propaganda that we can and should retreat further east, and that such
    retreat will cause no harm;

b) Unconditionally remove from their posts and send to the High Command
    for court martial those army commanders who have allowed unauthorized troop
    withdrawals from occupied positions, without the order of the Front command.

c) Form within each Front from one up to three (depending on the situation)
    penal battalions (800 persons) where commanders and high commanders and
    appropriate commissars of all service arms who have been guilty of a breach
    of discipline due to cowardice or bewilderment will be sent, and put them on
    more difficult sectors of the front to give them an opportunity to redeem by
    blood their crimes against the Motherland.

2. Military councils of armies and first of all army commanders should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their offices corps and army commanders and
    commissars who have accepted troop withdrawals from occupied positions
    without the order of the army command, and route them to the military
    councils of the fronts for court martial;

b) Form within the limits of each army 3 to 5 well-armed defensive squads
   (up to 200 persons in each), and put them directly behind unstable divisions
   and require them in case of panic and scattered withdrawals of elements of
   the divisions to shoot in place panic-mongers and cowards and thus help the
   honest soldiers of the division execute their duty to the Motherland;

c) Form within the limits of each army up to ten (depending on the situation)
    penal companies (from 150 to 200 persons in each) where ordinary soldiers
    and low ranking commanders who have been guilty of a breach of dicipline
    due to cowardice or bewilderment will be routed, and put them at difficult
    sectors of the army to give them an opportunity to redeem by blood their
   crimes against the Motherland.

3. Commanders and commissars of corps and divisions should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their posts commanders and commissars of
    regiments and battalions who have accepted unwarranted withdrawal of their
    troops without the order of the corps or division commander, take from them
    their orders and medals and route them to military councils of fronts for court
    martial;

b) Render all help and support to the defensive squads of the army in their
    business of strengthening order and discipline in the units.

    This order is to be read in all companies, cavalry squadrons, batteries,
    squadrons, commands and headquarters.

    The national commissar for defense: J. Stalin.
The rest of this thread has jumped the shark into economic philosophy, but at least I can correct factual errors.

[Vector]

Dammit, Nikov, your knowledge about this stuff never ceases to amaze me.  Thank you.

[Luke_Prowler]

Of course the Soviets had penal legions, they actually had Commissars to keep them in check (and the rest of the army. for that matter)

[Strife26]

The sheer number of times I've seen Nikov pull up a quote from old Red Army doctrine is amazing.


But yeah, baaaad baaaaad idea in any modern type army. Evidence? Bah, I'm playing the "vaunted personal experience" card.

[Criptfeind]

Damn Truean, why would you try to pull this into a economic debate?

Go make a thread for that if you want to talk about it.

[Sowelu]

As for penal companies, I'll just say that even Soviets (who used something that could basically be called "slave labor") didn't implement this. There is nothing more stupid than giving away a weapon to someone that has every reasons to hate you and sending him somewhere where you can't control him effectively.

<snip>

The rest of this thread has jumped the shark into economic philosophy, but at least I can correct factual errors.

The only things I saw in there were for breaches of military discipline, not for civil or criminal crimes.  I'm not sure it counts...I mean, they were already military to start with, which is different from yanking random guys out of prison and giving them guns.

(Arguable when you draft a huge chunk of your population, but still.)

[Truean]

This quote is from the OP, first page. "reducing prison costs" is central to this thread's theme:

so because one person might fall through the cracks, we give all prisoners a cushy life of free food and shelter to do nothing?

Damn Truean, why would you try to pull this into a economic debate?

Go make a thread for that if you want to talk about it.

My last post was about:
1.) Someone seeing sci fi concepts romanticizing penal legions and somehow thinking it would work in the modern world.
2.) "Reform" of the prison to "save costs," a central theme of this thread as stated above, fails badly. Prison reform lately has been privatizing prisons to "save costs." This thread is sort of "militarize prisons to save costs." Comparing the two is a perfectly valid method.
3.) Another "giving guns to prisoners = bad idea" plug
4.) Historical perspective of consequences a la Spartacus plug--"it's been done before and it aint pretty."
5.) Slavery bad. Baaad.....
6.) This does not mesh with American Values or I would say the value of any free society.

My point was this is an idea from sci fi stuff that won't work, that this would be an extra special failure of an idea in the already spectacularly failing group of ideas known as "prison cost saving ideas," it's a bad idea to give prisoners guns, it hasn't worked in the past, slavery is a bad idea and how do you expect this to work in a free society? Which of those do you see as an "economic argument?"

The only vaguely economic things I said referenced corporations screwing up prisons (specifically), and the economy at large (generally). This was said solely to point out that letting people, who don't know how prisons work, run or influence prisons is typically a bad idea and this can only be moreso the case if they screw up royally in their own areas of management. Corporations screw up big; military screw up big ("F.u.b.a.r." anyone?). Let one run prison system bad. Let the other run the prison system also bad....

This was not an economic argument: An economic argument would have entailed costs, or perhaps how the poor currently fight our wars and the poor are disproportionately impacted by our prison system. Butting the prison system and the military together will only screw the poor even more than they are screwed now. <--- That would've been an economic argument. Mine was about mismanagement. No no, I'm directly on point; you just didn't see how. If I wanted to make an economic argument, I would've.

[DJ]

"Community service" is rarely implemented because it is hugely ineffective. You don't have to pay the prisoners much, but you need to hire some people who would watch them - and such employees are usually more expensive than unskilled workers. Quality of work would be abysmal, because the imprisoned people don't usually have any relevant experience. They wouldn't also have any motivation to do their job well - most of those people didn't manage to work honestly when they could earn anything. And, of course, they would be taking jobs from decent people who could otherwise earn some money.

Make the service results based rather than time based, to a reasonable limit of course. For example, you tell the criminal to go clean up a number of the city parks by a certain date, if they're not clean by that date he serves the full prison sentence, and if he finishes early good for him, he's free to go.

[Gantolandon]

Long-term:  Fallacy.  Total available jobs is not a constant.

It doesn't have to. Any job that a prisoner could perform could also be done by a hired worker.

As for penal companies, I'll just say that even Soviets (who used something that could basically be called "slave labor") didn't implement this. There is nothing more stupid than giving away a weapon to someone that has every reasons to hate you and sending him somewhere where you can't control him effectively.

Code: (Order 227) [Select]

The Supreme General Headquarters of the Red Army commands:

1. Military councils of the fronts and first of all front commanders should:

a) Unconditionally eliminate retreat moods in the troops and with a firm hand
    bar propaganda that we can and should retreat further east, and that such
    retreat will cause no harm;

b) Unconditionally remove from their posts and send to the High Command
    for court martial those army commanders who have allowed unauthorized troop
    withdrawals from occupied positions, without the order of the Front command.

c) Form within each Front from one up to three (depending on the situation)
    penal battalions (800 persons) where commanders and high commanders and
    appropriate commissars of all service arms who have been guilty of a breach
    of discipline due to cowardice or bewilderment will be sent, and put them on
    more difficult sectors of the front to give them an opportunity to redeem by
    blood their crimes against the Motherland.

2. Military councils of armies and first of all army commanders should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their offices corps and army commanders and
    commissars who have accepted troop withdrawals from occupied positions
    without the order of the army command, and route them to the military
    councils of the fronts for court martial;

b) Form within the limits of each army 3 to 5 well-armed defensive squads
   (up to 200 persons in each), and put them directly behind unstable divisions
   and require them in case of panic and scattered withdrawals of elements of
   the divisions to shoot in place panic-mongers and cowards and thus help the
   honest soldiers of the division execute their duty to the Motherland;

c) Form within the limits of each army up to ten (depending on the situation)
    penal companies (from 150 to 200 persons in each) where ordinary soldiers
    and low ranking commanders who have been guilty of a breach of dicipline
    due to cowardice or bewilderment will be routed, and put them at difficult
    sectors of the army to give them an opportunity to redeem by blood their
   crimes against the Motherland.

3. Commanders and commissars of corps and divisions should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their posts commanders and commissars of
    regiments and battalions who have accepted unwarranted withdrawal of their
    troops without the order of the corps or division commander, take from them
    their orders and medals and route them to military councils of fronts for court
    martial;

b) Render all help and support to the defensive squads of the army in their
    business of strengthening order and discipline in the units.

    This order is to be read in all companies, cavalry squadrons, batteries,
    squadrons, commands and headquarters.

    The national commissar for defense: J. Stalin.
The rest of this thread has jumped the shark into economic philosophy, but at least I can correct factual errors.

Those are not penal companies that OP meant. Soviet penal battalions were meant as a punishment for people who were already conscripted and were found guilty of "breach of discipline". What druid91 suggested drafting civilians sentenced for criminal offenses, and that was something that Soviets haven't done. At some point they considered amnesty for prisoners in gulags, but as far as I remember, they considered it a bad idea after all.

Make the service results based rather than time based, to a reasonable limit of course. For example, you tell the criminal to go clean up a number of the city parks by a certain date, if they're not clean by that date he serves the full prison sentence, and if he finishes early good for him, he's free to go.

All right, imagine for example five people who have to clean a park. None of them has any experience in cleaning, but some of them know how to cheat and simulate work without doing anything at all. Expect some clever ideas from them, like dumping trash into the ponds. Another one was convicted for mugging; he isn't going to work, but hopes to force the rest to do his share of work for him. The fourth one isn't even interested to shorten his sentence, but in the park it's easier to snort some crack, because the guards are busy looking after others and checking ponds if no one dumps any trash there. Only the last one is interested in getting out earlier, because he really, really wants to gut his ex who snitched on him.

[Earthquake Damage]

For example, you tell the criminal to go clean up a number of the city parks by a certain date, if they're not clean by that date he serves the full prison sentence, and if he finishes early good for him, he's free to go.

Bad example.  Depending on the parks (location, size, usage) and what you mean by "clean", this is unreasonable if not downright cruel.

It doesn't have to. Any job that a prisoner could perform could also be done by a hired worker.

What's your point?

[Truean]

"Community service" is rarely implemented because it is hugely ineffective. You don't have to pay the prisoners much, but you need to hire some people who would watch them - and such employees are usually more expensive than unskilled workers. Quality of work would be abysmal, because the imprisoned people don't usually have any relevant experience. They wouldn't also have any motivation to do their job well - most of those people didn't manage to work honestly when they could earn anything. And, of course, they would be taking jobs from decent people who could otherwise earn some money.

Make the service results based rather than time based, to a reasonable limit of course. For example, you tell the criminal to go clean up a number of the city parks by a certain date, if they're not clean by that date he serves the full prison sentence, and if he finishes early good for him, he's free to go.

And if people don't want the criminals' sentences shorter, then we all just trash the park in public outrage. Or maybe I just don't like this particular criminal so I dump trash all over it. See? Not clean. Honestly though, how do you deal with this as a practical matter? Given that it would be hard to catch the people doing it (there's lots of illegal dumping in my town and we've been investigating for years, no leads)

[Funk]

as in those with small crimes (i.e. stealing) then telling them army or jail,then it happens all the time.
but Serial killer and rapist are the last thing the army needs.

[Nikov]

as in those with small crimes (i.e. stealing) then telling them army or jail,then it happens all the time.
but Serial killer and rapist are the last thing the army needs.

The British used to do this all the time. It was their principle method of recruiting short of German mercenaries. It also produced soldiers who couldn't think for themselves, which was good in a pitched European battle but crippling in wilderness fighting. The US army used to contain a lot more petty criminals, but I think Reagan's administration reformed the army.

[shadenight123]

before giving a gun to a criminal, wouldn't it be wiser to conscript the civilian?
i mean, if the problem is freeing the prisons, death sentence immediately and with no stops to all demonstrated homicides and pedophiles, a clear distinction. the morality or ethicity of the thing is secondary, a problem is not ethic or moral, a problem is a problem. One must apply the best solution to solve it.
War is a problem. A murderer is Not someone trained to war, not only that, he is mentally unstable. You will be giving to him assault weaponry capable of tearing a human in half with three bullets, not only that, but you'll need to train them in the art of the soldier, unless you wish to use them as meat shields, in which case you just free them naked on mined camps and see how many mines they blow up before dying. Or use their corpses as sandbags.
On the other hand, a civilian might feel a tad despaired being conscripted and all, but a little bit of brainwashing "you'll be fine, were sending you conscripts to an easy zone, filled with !!FUN!! and to relief the military" would certainly calm them down, and they'd go through training. Obviously.
Point is, war fought with penal legions poses two problems: training criminals who will likely use whatever they can to ditch/Escape/keep the shiny weapons for personal usage and making sure they do not rebel at the beginning. i mean, a criminal would rather say "NO i stay all my life in prison with my sentence, i get food, a bed, clothes, and get all the rape i want" then "let's go and get shot down by god-knows who doing god-knows what." if they don't train, their useless, unless as said before you want meat shields, but you'd still spend gasoline bringing them to the front and food and beverage until they are actually shot, so wouldn't it be better to just kill them with an axe and bring their corpses?