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[Sowelu]

... America has 1/10th of its population imprisoned?

I think I saw that 1/10th of its population HAS BEEN imprisoned, but I might be wrong there (yeah, yeah, 'citation needed' etc, I know it's true of some ethnicities in some regions though, which has been used as ammo for people rallying against profiling).

Okay, here's one.  Instead of "war legion" think "work legion".  Do we even use convicts for construction any more?  I mean we used to build railroads with them but we're not building railroads so much these days, and there's only so many license plates we need.  Can't we use them for construction?

(Major problem here:  It's indentured servitude.  They're working to pay for their incarceration, and the people who incarcerate them benefit from it.  If they are productive enough, it's possible that throwing a guy in jail for two years is a net profit for the State...and you don't ever want that situation to come up because, well, I shouldn't have to spell it out for you.)

[Lagslayer]

... America has 1/10th of its population imprisoned?

I think I saw that 1/10th of its population HAS BEEN imprisoned, but I might be wrong there (yeah, yeah, 'citation needed' etc, I know it's true of some ethnicities in some regions though, which has been used as ammo for people rallying against profiling).

Okay, here's one.  Instead of "war legion" think "work legion".  Do we even use convicts for construction any more?  I mean we used to build railroads with them but we're not building railroads so much these days, and there's only so many license plates we need.  Can't we use them for construction?

(Major problem here:  It's indentured servitude.  They're working to pay for their incarceration, and the people who incarcerate them benefit from it.  If they are productive enough, it's possible that throwing a guy in jail for two years is a net profit for the State...and you don't ever want that situation to come up because, well, I shouldn't have to spell it out for you.)

Pretty much this. I looked around and found out it costs, on average, $43000 per year per prisoner in the US in 2011, which is absurdly high. I wouldn't recommend them for military duty on a regular basis, especially if they are violent criminals. A strong working program could reduce the cost burden by leaps and bounds, but if this leads to a profit, it gives the government incentive to imprison people for trivial offenses that would otherwise be ignored. Then again, the same thing could be said of making people pay fines instead.

[alway]

If 43k/year is indeed the figure, and it sounds about right when cost of the facilities housing them are factored in, then I would highly doubt the state would be able to turn a profit. After all, most of them would be unskilled workers capable of little more than construction or factory jobs. They could probably only be reasonably expected to halve the costs in a best case scenario. Unless you go locking up skilled workers in massive quantities, you won't get anywhere near 43k/year.

[Nilik]

... America has 1/10th of its population imprisoned?

I think I saw that 1/10th of its population HAS BEEN imprisoned, but I might be wrong there (yeah, yeah, 'citation needed' etc, I know it's true of some ethnicities in some regions though, which has been used as ammo for people rallying against profiling).

Okay, here's one.  Instead of "war legion" think "work legion".  Do we even use convicts for construction any more?  I mean we used to build railroads with them but we're not building railroads so much these days, and there's only so many license plates we need.  Can't we use them for construction?

(Major problem here:  It's indentured servitude.  They're working to pay for their incarceration, and the people who incarcerate them benefit from it.  If they are productive enough, it's possible that throwing a guy in jail for two years is a net profit for the State...and you don't ever want that situation to come up because, well, I shouldn't have to spell it out for you.)

I was under the impression that this already happens; but its voluntary, and used as a reward for good behavior from inmates who are trusted to keep the stabbings and surprise sex to a minimum. They also get to earn some money, way less than minimum wage of course, but of course they can't actually use it until they get out.

I suspect the problem is a lack of inmates than can be expected to behave well enough for that sort of thing to work.

[Zangi]

*snip*
Pretty much this. I looked around and found out it costs, on average, $43000 per year per prisoner in the US in 2011, which is absurdly high. I wouldn't recommend them for military duty on a regular basis, especially if they are violent criminals. A strong working program could reduce the cost burden by leaps and bounds, but if this leads to a profit, it gives the government incentive to imprison people for trivial offenses that would otherwise be ignored. Then again, the same thing could be said of making people pay fines instead.

Politically, the people making the decisions don't want to look like they are soft on crime.  Plus 'lobbying' from the private prison industry doesn't help.
I don't know if its already been brought out, what with the current state of affairs, but I'd wager some douchebagspoliticians will think its a bright idea to force inmates to work to help the budget out, instead of less prisoners.

[Earthquake Damage]

And/or rig explosive collars..

Somebody watches terrible movies... 

[Levi]

Ok, I have been wondering this for a while now.... Why aren't penal legions (or whatever military group term you feel is correct, I'm no expert and I like legion so I'm sticking with it.) in use in modern militaries?

Because then the government would have a real good reason to make people criminals.  If you think the "War on Drugs" is bad now, imagine how bad it would be if the US got a new soldier to sacrifice whenever they put someone into jail for drug charges.

[Truean]

Forgetting the obvious 8th amendment "Cruel and Unusual Punishment," issues. Allow me to tell you what I'd do to you if I were a penal soldier. These are just examples:

The "Violent Model:"
I'd act like the perfect model soldier right up until I had earned your trust a few times. It might take me a year or three but I will maim you in horrid ways. No no, you don't get off that easy with the whole "me killing you" thing, you live with half your face and most of your skin gone.... Light match and maim. Simple. I don't know and I don't care how much gasoline that would require, but let's find out shall we? And that's just the "blue collar" version of screwing you over. I'll steal your freaking identity. That doesn't even get into the sexual criminal's version of things. (that's right, this IS the nice version).

Failing that you gave me a gun (and explosives !! ), when the fighting starts, I switch sides and kill a good chunk of the "regular guys" you sent to control me. Sure, I'll die but I'm taking you with me. Ah, bullets, the great equalizer. Then there are other "equalizers" like poisoning your food/water supply, disrupting your communications, giving the enemy supplies, leaking secrets/intel/troop movements to the enemy. Basically I could arrange an ambush and slaughter an entire battalion of your soldiers.

I know I'm gonna get shot and die, but I have a good shot at screwing you up and I'm gonna take it. The logic of "do this or we'll shoot you," doesn't work if I'm ok with getting shot and dying. Prison guards get attacked all the time and the prisoners know there's severe punishment for that. It doesn't stop them. If I'm a penal soldier you've made me cannon fodder anyhow so I'm probably going to die. You're the reason I'm in that position and you or whoever the crap is around me will pay for it dearly.

The non violent model:
Then of course, forget everything I just said, I'll just refuse to fight.

"Go ahead, shoot me." You can't do it, I've been sentenced to a term of years for a crime but not capital punishment. You don't have the legal authority to shoot me and if you do then you're guilty of murder and you can take my place. I'll even wrap my lips right around that barrel.

You are essentially giving your enemies reinforcements inside your own lines.

Also, you cannot defend freedom with slavery.

[lemon10]

Ok, I have been wondering this for a while now.... Why aren't penal legions (or whatever military group term you feel is correct, I'm no expert and I like legion so I'm sticking with it.) in use in modern militaries?

Because then the government would have a real good reason to make people criminals.  If you think the "War on Drugs" is bad now, imagine how bad it would be if the US got a new soldier to sacrifice whenever they put someone into jail for drug charges.

They would make it optional (well they could make it mandatory, but that would be plain stupid), and have each year you serve be 3/4 years off your prision sentence, I imagine they would get a lot of recruits then. I imagine they would also prevent certain types of people from joining (eg. crazy murders/rapists), although I imagine that even they wouldn't kill fellow soldiers because they aren't stupid and don't want to die, them might run away though, but odds are that would mean they are stuck in a foreign contory without a way to speak the language

Forgetting the obvious 8th amendment "Cruel and Unusual Punishment," issues. Allow me to tell you what I'd do to you if I were a penal soldier. These are just examples:

The "Violent Model:"
I'd act like the perfect model soldier right up until I had earned your trust a few times. It might take me a year but I will maim you in horrid ways. No no, you don't get off that easy with the whole "me killing you" thing, you live with half your face and most of your skin gone.... Light match and maim. Simple. I don't know and I don't care how much gasoline that would require, but let's find out shall we? And that's just the "blue collar" version of screwing you over. I'll steal your freaking identity. That doesn't even get into the sexual criminal's version of things.

Failing that you gave me a gun, when the fighting starts, I switch sides and kill a good chunk of the "regular guys" you sent to control me. Sure, I'll die but I'm taking you with me. Ah, bullets, the great equalizer.

I know I'm gonna get shot and die, but I have a good shot at screwing you up and I'm gonna take it. The logic of "do this or we'll shoot you," doesn't work. Prison guards get attacked all the time and the prisoners know there's severe punishment for that. It doesn't stop them.

Wow really? You sound like a huge asshole. You do know that's not actually how even prisoners think right?
And yeah, prison guards get attacked, but that's different.

[Truean]

Wow really? You sound like a huge asshole. You do know that's not actually how even prisoners think right? And yeah, prison guards get attacked, but that's different.

Four points:
1.) Violent criminals are such nice guys? 
2.) You do know how criminals think? (How exactly? I'm curious what you think they think like.)
3.) "These are just examples:"
4.) I'M? an asshole? Being unconstitutionally made a penal soldier is basically a death sentence imposed unlawfully. Wow I guess that person should accept death for some oil company, stuck up politician huh? Nope, I'd just be pissed that the government will have at that point shredded any pretense of being constitutional.

You've missed the entire point. That post was to show you what would go wrong. The name of the thread is, "Penal legions... Why not?" I'm giving you a practical example of "why not." My god, we're talking about enslaving people for the purpose of making them cannon fodder and I'm being called an asshole for showing that they might take acts showing they resent that?

If I shocked you, then maybe the point got through? It's a "Modest Proposal."

[sonerohi]

Well, people always bitch about: How heavily we outsource, illegal immigration and policing the border, how we are apparently running out of farmers. We could build more high security/ life sentence prisons along the border, ship over prisoners, and let them spot for the border patrols. We could rent low level offenders to big level farmers for heavy labors. We could rent them to corporations even cheaper than foreign labor, and revitalize industry.

[Criptfeind]

Unskilled criminals.

I do not think they would be appropriate for any of those.

[Angel Of Death]

Well, people always bitch about: How heavily we outsource, illegal immigration and policing the border, how we are apparently running out of farmers. We could build more high security/ life sentence prisons along the border, ship over prisoners, and let them spot for the border patrols. We could rent low level offenders to big level farmers for heavy labors. We could rent them to corporations even cheaper than foreign labor, and revitalize industry.

This isn't the 14th century anymore. Slave labour shouldn't be put into justice.

[Earthquake Damage]

Well, people always bitch about: How heavily we outsource, illegal immigration and policing the border, how we are apparently running out of farmers. We could build more high security/ life sentence prisons along the border, ship over prisoners, and let them spot for the border patrols. We could rent low level offenders to big level farmers for heavy labors. We could rent them to corporations even cheaper than foreign labor, and revitalize industry.

I believe that notion's been covered, more or less.  That is:

Major problem here:  It's indentured servitude.

If we're going to go that route, why not go for the gold and re-institute debt bondage?  Throw bankruptcy right out the window and make those lazy poor folk do some honest work to repay their debts.

[sonerohi]

Unskilled criminals.

I do not think they would be appropriate for any of those.

Unskilled laborers can't stare intently out of a window?

Also: Slave labor shouldn't be in justice, that I can agree with. But it is also unfair to force society at large to cover for some of the sorts that populate our prisons, and the state should recoup expenses in some way. Perhaps, and I dread to say this because it is far worse than slave labor, but... run the prisons like communes?