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Author Topic: Eve Online  (Read 275330 times)

Aavak

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #390 on: August 03, 2011, 07:33:48 am »

If I may contribute with my experience of living in wormholes.

Just for some background, so you can put this into perspective, we lived in a C4, there were 7 active players and maybe another 4 players who more or less visited during a week, rarely staying long enough to participate in a full night's activities.

Firstly, do not consider your home WH as your main hunting ground. As Dakorma has stated, you'll clean it out in a few days, and due to the 'lottery' system for WH sites, it may be weeks before anything else shows up. I'll explain the lottery:

All WH systems are entered into a lottery, or a raffle if you prefer the analogy. There are a static number of 'sites' available across the whole WH collection, these sites do not de-spawn unless they are first disrupted by a player visiting them (or scanning them, I'm not sure, but I believe you must actually try to warp to them first... you only have to get the warp-in popup, you can then cancel the warp and it will still count, but you have to get that popup first.) When a site de-spawns a new one will spawn somewhere, I believe there is a timer involved, but not sure how long it is. Where the new site spawns is chosen via the lottery, with empty wormholes having a higher chance or winning the lottery than wormholes with lots of sites in them already.

However, due to the 'static' nature of these sites, if there's a wormholes that's rarely ever visited, eventually it will collect a lot of sites and will in effect become a site sink, preventing other wormholes from getting much action. So, if you're passing through a WH, and happen to scan down a bunch of sites, even if you have no intention of actually running the sites for profit, initiate a warp to them then cancel the warp once you get the popup. This will cause the site to eventually de-spawn after a little while, depending on the type of site, and might result in some spawning in your WH, or one of the ones you're going to be raiding in a day's time.

This all comes together to mean that there's nearly no point in considering your WH a resource. Do not try to preserve the sites in it, don't aim to conserve it so you can do your hunting there later, because even if you are very careful in how you use the sites, you will probably exhaust them eventually. Or they'll get replaced by sites you don't want (perhaps you want regular mining, but you get gas mining, or you want combat, but you get mining... in my experience gas mining sites are much more prevalent than regular mining sites, or combat sites) Also, while you're being careful and avoiding to hunt too often, everyone will be getting bored, because in a WH that's all there is to do. Not to mention, if you avoid running the sites, you're not making money, which is counter productive on another level. Finally, if you don't run the sites, someone else will when they pass through—either wanting to kill the sleepers and grab the loot (and if their combat force is bigger than yours, then you'll simply have to sit under your shield feeling like derps as you watch all the money you carefully preserved get hoovered up by someone else) or they'll just pop the sites as I described above, so they'll re-spawn elsewhere.

In short, the key to running sites in a WH, is not to run the sites in your own system. Consider them a nice, easy to reach bonus, one that should be collected as soon as you can. Instead, the real goal should be in raiding neighbouring wormholes. To this end, you should ABSOLUTELY NOT settle in a wormhole system whose static exit is another wormhole. A merc corp I ran with, priror to the WH corp I joined, did this when they tried out WH living. They were in a C3 with a link to low-sec, and we got so bored that the corp eventually collapsed in on itself through infighting and silliness. This means you wont always have a guaranteed way out of the WH, but you will not need to visit high-sec more than once a week, where as, depending on activity, you'll want to be raiding a different wormhole once or twice a day.

To quickly explain static exits to people who don't know how they work; each wormhole is guaranteed an exit. The exit will re-spawn within 10 minutes if it closes prematurely, the exit will lead to a class of space, not a specific system. So you might have a static that leads to C4 wormholes (which we had in our C4, which was very good for us, but meant we were virtually assured that we'd need to scan at least 3 WH away to get out to known-space again) or it might lead to a C1, or low-sec, or high-sec or null-sec. Wherever it leads, it will always generate a new exit to the same type of space.

While it's very tempting to get a place that will always lead back to high-sec, or at least low-sec, just so you know you can get more fuel, in all honesty you will need to refuel very infrequently (we only made a fuel run about every 3 weeks, we just bought a lot at a time, and took all our loot out in the same operation) compared to how often you'll want to be able to run combat sites/mining sites. If you don't have a static to another WH, you'll be entirely reliant on random 'site' spawns that happen to be wormholes, or, in worst case scenario, you'll be reliant on someone else's static connecting to your WH.

It's always better to be the ones connecting to somewhere else, rather than having another WH connect to you. The way WH tunnels work, is that only the entrance is spawned to start with. Once you visit the entrance, it will randomly spawn the exit, so in effect as long as you don't go to the WH, it isn't linked anywhere, so you don't have to worry about anyone jumping through from the other side yet. Also, you can arrange a war party before jumping to your static WH, which means you've got a combat group ready to bust through into someone else's space from the very instant that there's a bridge between your two WHs. They will almost certainly not be prepared so the chance of a quick gank is good if there's any activity in the other WH.


Wow, that's so much text! On just one point, I'd wanted to reply to all of them. However, I think I'll shut up before I make anyone go blind lol. Hope this helps, though :)

~Cern (Mostyn on Eve)

forsaken1111

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #391 on: August 03, 2011, 07:50:26 am »

That's very helpful Cern. I didn't know that about the site lottery. But even so, if all we do in this WH is hit the sleeper sites (there are currenly 16) and mine the gas, we will make a profit. If we exhaust all of those sites and only run colonies on the 12 planets, we'll still make money. We can always look for another WH to raid and use this POS as a convenient base for PI and occasional gas product reactions to make polymers as you suggested to me before.
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Knave

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #392 on: August 03, 2011, 07:58:24 am »

Wouldn't mind hanging out with the bay12 crew on occasion! I'm currently in Amarr space (Kador) Shooting rocks/ice in my hulk/mackinaw. I'm currently training up covert ops ships cause I like the idea of flying around in a ship that can cloak while warped. Your wormhole nearby?
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ductape

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #393 on: August 03, 2011, 11:49:21 am »

the best way to make money is level up to battleships (i have to wholly disagree that these ships are not THE ship to fly) then head out to 0.0 for ratting, ratting and more ratting. Im sorry to say it, but CCP has not ever done anything to make earning ISK more fun than that (ratting is not fun). ISK is just the thing you NEED to buy more ships, it should not be the goal (in my opinion).

I know while your learning about all the complexities of production and POS's and reactions and blueprints and so forth it seems fun, yes it IS fun t learn about the complexities of this game. But in practice it turns into  major chore. Go ahead and get a POS and set it up, have fun with it while it is fun, but be real with yourself and realize it is also a lame chore to haul fuel all the time out there. Its something you HAVE to do, not something your COULD do. Like, you HAVE to log in tonight and fuel that POS if nonone else is going to do it or the shields will drop. Its not an option, you GOTTA do it! thats a job, not a game.

I was there, I did it, for a long time I did it. You will feel like me too eventually as do all long term players in eve eventually get tired of the the production side of the game. I guess what I am saying is have your fun until finally the Wizard of Oz pulls back the curtain and you see the truth, that it is in fact a monotonous spreadsheet game with lots of hauling junk back and forth.

man, am I bitter? No. Im just trying to say that flying combat ships is way more fun for way longer, and that gets boring too but not as fast.

EDIT:
 to offer up a alternative, here's what I recommend for small newbish corp that don't have access to the ship needed for 0.0 action. You form up a small anti-pirate/merc service and pic an area of high-sec that borders on a hotly contested area of low-sec of some similar situation where industrial corps are being pestered by pirates. You get involved in the politics a bit in that area and try to to identify some other smallish corp at about your level that are pirates or maybe just you find some reason to go to war with another corp. then, go to war.

Its a blast being at war with a corp at about your same rankings. The politics are fun, the action is so exciting when you hunt your enemy down and pop them. It gives you a reason to do shit all the time, it gives you a reason to be on your toes all the time. War is good. When you get tired, end the war, lick your wounds. rinse and repeat until you can make it to 0.0

EDIT 2:
OK so i guess these are not mutually exclusive, you COULD do this sort of thing and still run industrial ops, but theres a sticking point. If you got to war (remember war is good fun) then your industrial pilots are just targets. Granted it may be fun to defend these targets but it is a handicap your enemy may not have. I always ran two accounts mainly so I could have one account for dedicated combat pilot and the other was my CEO/productionist. If you are running wars and industry at the same time, then the best path is to have 2 corps, one for the war action and the other is the shadow corp that handles all the industrial ops. This keeps the neatly out of the war status so they can keep their work up in high sec and not fear being popped.

Your war targets will of course get wise to this if they see you defending mining ships of another corp, and may decide to declare war on that corp also. Time to find some allies or hire some mercs to help out! See how that works? If your war pilots are getting tired of escorting mining ships, maybe its time to hire yourselves out as mercs to some other corp who is being harassed. High Sec war can be pretty awesome.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 12:04:21 pm by ductape »
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LordBucket

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #394 on: August 03, 2011, 09:18:40 pm »

Exactly what I pointed out. Thank you for corroborating.

Certainly. Excessive focus on rushing to bigger ships is a common mistake. It was worth repeating.

Quote
the other members of the corp are interested in the
whole dick around in production and blueprints.

That's fine. The point is to have fun, after all. If people want to mine and build stuff, no problem. But I see no reason to go out of our way to encourage people to diversify into a 3-2-3 mine-produce-soldier thing you're suggesting.

Quote
Not sure how this is relevant, at all. We're actually planning on setting up a PoS in wormhole space at current. I'm honestly not sure why, when you can't do the complex stuff, like moon mining, or sovereignty.

It was a counterproposal. Like both you and Cern are saying, setting up a POS in wormhole space has some drawbacks. The way I see it, if we're going to do a POS at all, we may as well do it in nullsec.

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can't use an item if I don't have the skills to as far as I know.

As of when I was playing in 2007 or so you could. I suppose they might have changed it, but I remember fitting frigates for corpmates with modules they couldn't fit themselves, and they worked just fine. In any case, it should be easy to test to see if you still can.

------------------------

the best way to make money is level up to battleships (i have to wholly disagree that these ships are not THE ship to fly) then head out to 0.0 for ratting

I remember doing 30 million / hour (mostly because of salvage) by soloing level 4 missions in a passive drake. I'm not sure how much you make ratting with a battleship, but even if it's more...is it enough more to justify the risk? Personally I'd be hesitant to even set foot into nullsec on my own in a fully fitted battleship, let alone hang out in one place for hours at a time.

TwilightWalker

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #395 on: August 03, 2011, 09:59:43 pm »

Actually, one of the most profitable ways to get isk now is to run Incursions. I easily get 100+ mil an hour blitzing these things with one of the many fleets running them. Flipside is that they prefer at least BS or T2 BCs running in the fleet with them, so you have to be able to fly those. Or a logistics ship.
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Burnt Pies

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #396 on: August 03, 2011, 11:36:51 pm »

For anyone not flying Caldari getting into a BS is a lot more urgent, as they don't have an 'I win at PvE' ship like the Drake. None of the other BCs can take the sort of punishment it can, and it's got good DPS too.

Also, C4 WHs are a lot tougher than C3s. I was told that in order to join Corp WH nights I needed a BS with 70-80% resists, as few smaller ships have the Buffer needed to tank before the Logi can get to you.

'Course, I was also told Incursions are crap money, so I don't really have all that much confidence in what I'm told.
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ductape

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #397 on: August 04, 2011, 01:52:49 am »

Ratting in 0.0 is actually a lot safer than just about anything, especially more safe than lvl 4 missions. Not only is it safer tha lvl 4 missions but its also easier and faster. usually short travel times, easy, fast, quick-fix isk

0.0 is quiet, veeery quiet. usually. just watch alliance chat and dock up if a roving gang is around and then join in the hunting party. Theres so many people watching all the choke points in nearly every 0.0 place I have ever been that its pretty much impossible to get ganked unless yo dont follow the rules. I have never ever been ganked in 0.0, not once.

The best thing about ratting is you can do it solo once you can fit a BS nicely, no gang required. Rat whenever you like, and I have usually one way better than 30 mil per hour. Yeah its boring, but most things are in MMOs anyway when you get down to it. You just rat enough to get the isk for ships and then go out hunting for fun.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 01:56:03 am by ductape »
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Aavak

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #398 on: August 04, 2011, 04:58:28 am »

For anyone not flying Caldari getting into a BS is a lot more urgent, as they don't have an 'I win at PvE' ship like the Drake. None of the other BCs can take the sort of punishment it can, and it's got good DPS too.

Also, C4 WHs are a lot tougher than C3s. I was told that in order to join Corp WH nights I needed a BS with 70-80% resists, as few smaller ships have the Buffer needed to tank before the Logi can get to you.

'Course, I was also told Incursions are crap money, so I don't really have all that much confidence in what I'm told.

Hi Burnt Pies,

You've been told correctly regarding C4 wormholes. The escalation in terms of enemy DPS and tanking, from C3s, is staggering. However, a battle ship is neither necessary, nor optimal. If it's the most advanced thing you can fly, then sure, but you will need a group of about 3 to 6 BS, fitted in such a way that you have a spider rep chain of around 5 to 6 large remote reppers. Unfortunately, because of the way Sleepers will switch targets (and prioritise logi, and covert targets) a logi ship would be at risk of the alpha strike.

However, I found that two legions could run C4 in pairs, using only a local rep (if fit specifically to maximise repping). This ended up being what myself and a friend did towards the end of our time in the C4. While the others were in large battleship groups of 4s or 5s, taking 20 to 40 minutes to clear a site, we would do the same job with just the two of us in 15 minutes. Needless to say, it was very profitable when the rewards were only being split between 2 people!

Since leaving the wormhole and basing in High-sec again, I've raided up to C3s, solo, in the legion I'd fit for C4s. C3s required me to pay attention to what I was doing, but as far as the combat sites themselves, C1 and C2 wormholes were no more challenging than regular missions. The only thing I had to stay focused for was checking D-scan for other players.

Burnt Pies

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #399 on: August 04, 2011, 11:04:19 am »

I think most people could fly better than BS (I was getting close to starting Legions, for instance), but the way it was put to me, no matter how well tanked, anything not a BS was just a pretty explosion in a C4. Interesting to get conflicting opinions.


I haven't been able to play for a while, anyway. Incarna pushed EVE's minimum reqs above what my bucket of bolts could do, it bluescreens when I try to run EVE now.
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Aavak

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #400 on: August 04, 2011, 11:57:46 am »

I think most people could fly better than BS (I was getting close to starting Legions, for instance), but the way it was put to me, no matter how well tanked, anything not a BS was just a pretty explosion in a C4. Interesting to get conflicting opinions.


I haven't been able to play for a while, anyway. Incarna pushed EVE's minimum reqs above what my bucket of bolts could do, it bluescreens when I try to run EVE now.

Yeah, that seems to be the impression, and because it's the prevailing theory, not many people are willing to risk experimenting. It took a bit of a 'balls on the table' moment for me and my friend to take our two legions into a C4 combat site. We weren't stupid about it, though, we asked a few corp mates to stay at the POS on stand by in their Remote-rep fit battleships, in case we got into trouble.

Generally, the legion could tank a C4 solo, or close to it. Some of them might require that you pop a few of the cruisers before your rep would reach a stable point, but the problem was the DPS. With only 1 legion, it would take a long time to clean up a site, and in some cases you wouldn't be able to--it took both of us, overheating our guns, to kill off some waves in a barracks site, because of the amount of remote rep the sleepers were fielding. Once you took out one of the ships, their tank was busted and we could mop up quickly, but it was difficult to break through the tank to kill off that first ship.

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #401 on: August 04, 2011, 01:19:13 pm »

I think most people could fly better than BS (I was getting close to starting Legions, for instance), but the way it was put to me, no matter how well tanked, anything not a BS was just a pretty explosion in a C4. Interesting to get conflicting opinions.


I haven't been able to play for a while, anyway. Incarna pushed EVE's minimum reqs above what my bucket of bolts could do, it bluescreens when I try to run EVE now.

Yeah, that seems to be the impression, and because it's the prevailing theory, not many people are willing to risk experimenting. It took a bit of a 'balls on the table' moment for me and my friend to take our two legions into a C4 combat site. We weren't stupid about it, though, we asked a few corp mates to stay at the POS on stand by in their Remote-rep fit battleships, in case we got into trouble.

Generally, the legion could tank a C4 solo, or close to it. Some of them might require that you pop a few of the cruisers before your rep would reach a stable point, but the problem was the DPS. With only 1 legion, it would take a long time to clean up a site, and in some cases you wouldn't be able to--it took both of us, overheating our guns, to kill off some waves in a barracks site, because of the amount of remote rep the sleepers were fielding. Once you took out one of the ships, their tank was busted and we could mop up quickly, but it was difficult to break through the tank to kill off that first ship.

Was this before or after the sleeper buff that made them actually use their neuts? If it was before, I'd suspect that it would be quite a bit harder these days, a few sleeper cruisers can drain my large cap battery fitted logistics dry in a minute or so. A tank is quite a lot harder to sustain with no cap.
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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #402 on: August 04, 2011, 03:16:27 pm »

There are a lot of reasons to set up our first POS in WH instead of null sec. The biggest one being that the WH is much safer since enemies can't bring in huge Pew Pews.

Also, as someone pointed out, even if we do manage to completely exhaust the WH with our little crew, we will have turned a profit by then anyways.

Is there any way to tell which worm hole is the static one?

Anyways, I am still comfortable with the worm hole plan. At very least it gives us something to work towards.

Dakorma

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #403 on: August 04, 2011, 05:31:48 pm »

Brought in 10 Harbinger 1 run BPCS today. They were a long flight out but the potential profit was worth it. Got the 10 of them for 2 million. Just one of these around finid is selling for 800k, I'm giving them to the corp.
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Dakorma

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Re: Eve Online
« Reply #404 on: August 05, 2011, 02:41:08 am »

We have a PoS set up, it's entrance is currently in Finid, where it will be tomorrow no one knows, but we've got a scanning vessel still inside the wormhole to scan us and entry tomorrow.

We are currently taking names for the PoS, currently we have Elfmurder, The Hills of Glass as the main contender.

If anyone wants to join us, we'll be doing shit tomorrow. If you are new and want a 21 day absolutely free trial give me a PM with your email and I'll send you one. Just be aware you'll likely have to skill into at least a cruiser to dick around with us in the wormhole. That should take roughly a week to a week and a half to have everything you need. We do have 3 cruisers available, if you want them. We also have the stuff to fit them fairly well. Be aware that you should probably give them back if you are going to not sign up fully and be consumed by EVE.


I do have to give Forsaken a pat on the back, he preformed well and was very patient when we started to fuck up. Even though we wrapped up around 3 o'clock his time.
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