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Author Topic: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy  (Read 13606 times)

G-Flex

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2011, 11:29:07 pm »

I have to wonder how much of that comes from D&D, where that sort of thing is more expected, what with it being a combat-oriented game.
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2011, 11:37:07 pm »

Something I've always hated in stock fantasy is the concept of "good races" and "evil races", especially when there's no real explanation why.

"Look, a band of unarmed sleeping goblins! We outnumber them for now, let us slay them pitilessly in the name of all that is good!"

Quoted for truth. At least Tolkien's orcs were cruel and brutal because they were debased and tortured until all they knew was cruelty and brutality.
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2011, 11:56:18 pm »

Something I've always hated in stock fantasy is the concept of "good races" and "evil races", especially when there's no real explanation why.

"Look, a band of unarmed sleeping goblins! We outnumber them for now, let us slay them pitilessly in the name of all that is good!"

Yes, that's a mark of a bad author. I enjoy GRRM and Steven Erickson much better because everything has a reason, and thye don't generalize in that manner.
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2011, 12:17:59 am »

I don't know why people associate Tolkien with adolescence or black & white morality.  I actually think his books describe the most complex & subtle moral perspectives of any literature I've read.  Honestly, I think "gritty" under the pretense of being more morally realistic or complex tend to do exactly the opposite.  Where naivety assumes everything is good, cynicism isn't any more sophisticated for assuming everything is tainted.  Not that noir can't be entertaining, in a self-indulgent fashion.

But anyway, here's my summary of Tolkien's morality.

It's superficially very black & white, but if you look at the progression through middle-earth's history, you find that heroism is never rewarded.  All the heroes of his stories meet tragic ends, and somehow inadvertently end up making the world a worse place.  Even the gods of the world, the Valar, end up separating themselves from the world in the end, because they find that when they intervene to try and make things right, they only seem to make things worse.  The seemingly infallible epic heroes of virtue are also always revealed to have common features with the "dark forces" of the world -- pride, covetousness, ambition, jealousy, etc.  It is always these qualities that bring about the ironic end of any character in his works, whether good or evil.  The only difference is that good will have these qualities in a well-intentioned, restrained, or structured and culturally accepted manner, where Morgoth, Sauron, etc will be completely made of them in the most selfish manner possible.  "Evil" is always the instigator of conflict, but "good" is an equal and willing participant.  Keep in mind that a single event set in motion the entire history of Tolkien's world, that is Feanor's creation of the Silmarils.  He was so proud and possessive of them, which he had every right to be, as he created them.  Morgoth falls in love with them and kills Feanor's father in the process of stealing them.  Feanor then leads his people on a massive suicide mission to middle-earth to retrieve them and avenge his father.  If this is black & white morality, then apparently you can turn any dispute into black & white with the words "he started it!"

There are only two ultimate forces of good in Tolkien's work -- Valinor and the hobbits.  Ironically, they're not actually "good" so much as very very neutral.  Both Valinor and the shire lead very simplistic and egalitarian lifestyles.  The only major difference is one is inhabited by gods, and the other by unimpressive midgets.  Both mostly ignore the conflicts of the outside world, finding them foolish, but stepping in when things get so out of hand that it starts spilling out of bounds.  This is why the hobbits were so resilient to the corruption of the ring.  It corrupted people through their natural ambitions.  Hobbits had none.  Simple people.  Frodo and Sam didn't want to be heroes.  Their culture even frowned on the very concept.  They were only doing what they found needed to be done.  This is what Tolkien presents as an absolute ideal.

At the same time, he concedes the necessity for "good" lest the world be overrun by "evil", but with the warning that they carry the same corruptible motivations.  He portrays the likes of Boromir, Aragorn, Galadriel, etc in a very positive, but very dangerous light.  But this is also related to one of his other core lessons.  The landscape of heroes and villains is what makes the world an interesting place.  This is actually the first moral lesson in all of his works.  As the Valar are first creating the world, Morgoth tries to oppose them in everything they do.  As this happens, Eru Illuvatar points out to them how his opposition enriches the world.   From Wikipedia, as I don't have a copy of the Silmarillion on hand at work "Melkor’s attempts to disrupt with the use of fierce heat and severe cold do nothing to ruin Water (as Melkor must have hoped), but rather leave the World with the beauties of snow and frost and clouds and rain."  This is a continuous theme throughout Tolkien's mythology, as great conflict is seen as both a negative and a positive.  It always leads to both great beauty, great destruction, and epic tales that enrich the cultural and historical landscape of the world.  The Valar even concede this to Feanor as they advise him against going to war against Morgoth, but admit that the events which transpire will surely make for great songs and stories.  As time passes in Arda, the scales of conflict between good and evil continually diminish, and the nature of the world grows less and less colorful.  In the end, all the immortal and powerful beings of the world end up leaving, and all that's left is grey and uninteresting.  There's no great ugliness, but no great beauty in middle-earth either.  It's very bittersweet.

And the final major point of morality in Tolkien's mythology is that good never triumphs over evil.  Evil defeats itself.  Good, while sharing common, corruptible qualities with evil, is separated by ultimately positive intentions and codes designed to uphold those intentions.  Evil is not so restrained, and is much more alluring and thus more populated.  The forces of good always always always lose, throughout the entire history of middle-earth.  They win battles, but never wars.  But the destructive nature of evil always turns on itself in the end.  This is most obviously displayed in the destruction of the ring (where the movies failed most greivously).  Sam and Frodo were not successful in destroying the ring.  Gollum was.  Or rather, the ring poisoned his mind to such a point of insane single-minded obsession, that he completely lost all awareness of his surroundings when he finally got his precious back and dances with joy right into the crack of doom.  The will of Sauron carried out in the corrupting influence of the ring unwittingly orchestrated its own destruction.  This was a huge lesson for me when I was younger, and I didn't encounter the same sentiment in any other work until I was much older.
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2011, 12:32:58 am »

Not exactly proving me wrong there.

Other examples would include POUR MAGMA ON IT as a solution to virtually any problem.

I am, shocking though it might seem, actually in full agreement.

Oddly, I agree with the sentiment right up to the use of the specific example. "Pouring magma on it" can actually be has actually been used to solve most problems right up to being a fix for actual glitches in the game itself.  I think that's why this one has lasting power.

But yes. The in jokes can get rather out of hand. The Circus analogy, ferinstance. I didn't quite realize how bad it was until people couldn't talk in a thread marked spoilers without using spoiler tags and euphemisms.
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Solace

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2011, 01:31:57 am »

I think there's a reason why people use established fantasy worlds, and that's because, well, you already know them. Yes, it's boring, but look at... oh, the Na'vi, for example. You can just have the Na'vi in Avatar with no explanation, because there's a boatload of cgi actually making them show up right before you. But imagine you're grabbing someone off the street a decade ago, and explaining the Na'vi through only words. They're humanlike... but blue, with black camo... nose sort of like a lion's... they have long, braided hair that's secretly a tail that's secretly a usb port containing dozens of little glowing tentacles that can interface with these things that look sort of like weird tentacle-ears or stinkhorns or something that comes off the head of everything else in the planet, and...

Well, you've lost about 95% your audience, I figure. And the ones that stuck around still only got maybe a half-decent picture of what a Na'vi is. But dwarf? Short viking. Elf? Fashion model with pointy ears. Orc? I don't know, imagine a neanderthal with pointy teeth, whatever it takes to make you want to kill it. Goblin? Smaller version of that. The reason you know what a mermaid and a centuar and a naga all are, but can't remember what anything by lovecraft looked like except maybe cthulu and the shugoth is that the "typical" fantasy creatures are all easy to explain, and there's only so many possible versions of "human, but with 2-3 variations".

EDIT: Oh, and about the list 'o cliches a bit ago: Did you do this, or did you do the opposite? Either way you're a hack. Really.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 01:43:22 am by Solace »
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G-Flex

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2011, 02:14:35 am »

Not exactly proving me wrong there.

Other examples would include POUR MAGMA ON IT as a solution to virtually any problem.

I am, shocking though it might seem, actually in full agreement.

Oddly, I agree with the sentiment right up to the use of the specific example. "Pouring magma on it" can actually be has actually been used to solve most problems right up to being a fix for actual glitches in the game itself.  I think that's why this one has lasting power.

Right, but I mean situations where it has no actual applicable value. Obviously, if magma's a viable solution to something, then it should be mentioned.

But imagine you're grabbing someone off the street a decade ago, and explaining the Na'vi through only words. They're humanlike... but blue, with black camo... nose sort of like a lion's... they have long, braided hair that's secretly a tail that's secretly a usb port containing dozens of little glowing tentacles that can interface with these things that look sort of like weird tentacle-ears or stinkhorns or something that comes off the head of everything else in the planet, and...

Well, you've lost about 95% your audience, I figure.

If people can't handle verbal descriptions of things and creatures they haven't seen before, then they can't handle books. And if you can't handle successfully giving said descriptions, then you're a hack of an author/storyteller.
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2011, 02:57:30 am »

If people can't handle verbal descriptions of things and creatures they haven't seen before, then they can't handle books. And if you can't handle successfully giving said descriptions, then you're a hack of an author/storyteller.

Well said.
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Solace

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2011, 03:16:01 am »

I wish, but that's just not the case. You don't write your books for the "true readers" any more than you make your games for the "truly hardcore" gamers. If you have to spend fifty pages explaining how your iguana/merperson looks, what their exact affinity to water is, where they live, what their political structure is like, and how they tend to act, before you even get to why they're there in the first place and aren't human village 3, you've kind of bogged down your book a lot, and most people are reasonable to be turned off by it. If you say "well, you've seen the little mermaid, right?", yes it's a bit more boring, but it skips the fifty pages of explanation that are even more boring. And before you say "well a good author should be able to make anything interesting", I refer you to the "traveling through the planet core" sequence in Star Wars Episode 1. Was it cool? Yes. Did it totally kill the story for a full half hour? Also yes.
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Krelos

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2011, 09:44:41 am »

I wish, but that's just not the case. You don't write your books for the "true readers" any more than you make your games for the "truly hardcore" gamers. If you have to spend fifty pages explaining how your iguana/merperson looks, what their exact affinity to water is, where they live, what their political structure is like, and how they tend to act, before you even get to why they're there in the first place and aren't human village 3, you've kind of bogged down your book a lot, and most people are reasonable to be turned off by it. If you say "well, you've seen the little mermaid, right?", yes it's a bit more boring, but it skips the fifty pages of explanation that are even more boring. And before you say "well a good author should be able to make anything interesting", I refer you to the "traveling through the planet core" sequence in Star Wars Episode 1. Was it cool? Yes. Did it totally kill the story for a full half hour? Also yes.
A good author weaves description into the narrative and doesn't need to infodump. Even if what he's describing is quite different from the normal fare, he doesn't need more than a paragraph or two to get the general idea across. You don't use comparisons that break the fourth wall, but do use as many as make sense within the context of the story.
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2011, 12:45:40 pm »

For example:

The Na'vi were tall, enourmously so. Their skin was bright blue, with a fascinating print of darker tones stretching over their intire body. Their faces were like a mixture of that of a human and a large cat, with large yellow eyes staring at you and pointy ears standing higher on the head then a human's. Futhermore, they had long tails the length of their legs, which they decorated wth beads and ropes and other doodats they could find.
Their decorating choices also stretched to their clothing. It was sparse to say the least, but Pandora was a warm planet. The only part of their body always covered was their heads, over which dark thick hair was draped, always fashioned into a long braid.

They were infamous(because the only reason why you would explain this in an infodump is when the hero already knows, but the audience does not) for their relationship with their habitat. At the end of their long braids they had a nerve-system opening, which was a common biological feature on their planet. With this any two species, may they be plants or animals, could connect and share information of any kind. It was thanks to this feature that the Na'vi shared such intimate relation with their surroundings, which to them carried the history of their ancestors.

There... and I'm not even a particulary good writer or a fan of Avatar. Imagine if someone proffesional would do this.
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2011, 12:59:04 pm »

EDIT: Oh, and about the list 'o cliches a bit ago: Did you do this, or did you do the opposite? Either way you're a hack. Really.
It doesn't matter which side of the line you're on if you're still thinking inside the box.
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G-Flex

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2011, 01:47:40 pm »

I wish, but that's just not the case. You don't write your books for the "true readers" any more than you make your games for the "truly hardcore" gamers. If you have to spend fifty pages explaining how your iguana/merperson looks, what their exact affinity to water is, where they live, what their political structure is like, and how they tend to act, before you even get to why they're there in the first place and aren't human village 3, you've kind of bogged down your book a lot, and most people are reasonable to be turned off by it.

Right, and having to spend so much time exclusively on exposition makes you a bad author. You should be able to weave that stuff into the more important content. Hell, the same applies with movies or any other form of narrative. Often, the best way to describe a setting is to describe what happens in it.
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Flaede

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2011, 02:00:13 pm »

I wish, but that's just not the case. You don't write your books for the "true readers" any more than you make your games for the "truly hardcore" gamers. If you have to spend fifty pages explaining how your iguana/merperson looks, what their exact affinity to water is, where they live, what their political structure is like, and how they tend to act, before you even get to why they're there in the first place and aren't human village 3, you've kind of bogged down your book a lot, and most people are reasonable to be turned off by it. If you say "well, you've seen the little mermaid, right?", yes it's a bit more boring, but it skips the fifty pages of explanation that are even more boring.

I'd be curious to look at your reading list. Is it all action sequences and pithy dialogue or something?
I have read many books that present unique visions of rather alien creatures that do not require chapter long infodumps or tedious description to give you an understanding of what these beings are. Staggered description, or waiting until it's relevant, or quite simply making finding out about the creature a part of the action. Often when a comparison to a known critter is used, it is done so as to say as much about the person doing the comparison as it does about the critter. Unless it was giant two trunked elephants who count in base eight and got their technology from a monolith. Then it's just a bunch of shout outs to all the author's author-friends.

Right, and having to spend so much time exclusively on exposition makes you a bad author. You should be able to weave that stuff into the more important content. Hell, the same applies with movies or any other form of narrative. Often, the best way to describe a setting is to describe what happens in it.

yeah. Finding out about the creature a part of the action. Always a good method. "Show, don't tell."
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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2011, 02:16:36 pm »

On what makes good fantasy, by Stephen Donaldson (writer of what is, imo, easily one of the two best and most original fantasy series since Tolkien):
Quote
A somewhat oversimplified way to make the same point is by comparing fantasy to realistic, mainstream fiction. In realistic fiction, the characters are expressions of their world, whereas in fantasy the world is an expressions of the characters... Any personification of evil must over-simplify the nature of evil, if only by suggesting that evil is out there rather than in here. I argue, however, that in fantasy the entire out there, with all its levels and complexities and dimensions, is an externalization - for dramatic purposes - of what is in her
(the whole thing is worth reading, as his Thomas Covenant series, which is unique in that its protagonist wakes up in a fantasy world and, fairly reasonably, decides it's clearly a delusion)

Also, I was surprised the OP wasn't about The Last Ringbearer, in which the War of the Rings (or, more accurately, its aftermath) is told from the point of view from Mordor.  In it, there are no evil rings of power and the orcs are actually human. The war was launched in part by the sort of ruthlessly nature-loving elves we have in DF, as they were concerned about the dire consequences of Mordor's incipient industrial revolution.  I guess now that I think of it, I never finished it, but it was still pretty good for what was essentially a giant fan-fic.
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