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[redacted123]

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[forsaken1111]

Actually I'd say the number of potential casualties doesn't even matter when it comes to public opinion. Normal people don't see a news story about an operation in the middle east and go "Hm, out of the 30 innocent people near that military target they only killed two by mistake. Good job boys!"

They either go "Well they shouldn't have been near a military target!" or "Oh no, they killed two innocent bystanders! The military is shameful!"

[Aqizzar]

I couldn't be a pure application of numbers.  It would have to be more about exposure, and profile.  One person's life does not generate the same outrage as another, but then again, almost anyone can become a martyr depending on the circumstances.  I suppose it would ultimately have to be random.

Reminds me of that C&C3 (or 4?) mod, about Israel vs U.N. vs All Muslims Everywhere.  The Muslim faction could build/upgrade video cameras onto their units, and get resources from broadcasting their units being destroyed.  Here it is.

[darkrider2]

... That mod is so awesome.

[Leafsnail]

It kindof depends why you're there in the first place.  If the point of the war is to, say, topple a dictator and help the people there, it's rather invalidated if you're killing hundreds of civilians every week.

[RedKing]

It kindof depends why you're there in the first place.  If the point of the war is to, say, topple a dictator and help the people there, it's rather invalidated if you're killing hundreds of civilians every week.

And yet Germans didn't complain when we toppled Hitler. Mostly because they were too exhausted and hungry to complain, but still...

Allied-inflicted civilian casualties in Germany and Japan were absolutely appalling by modern standards. Honestly, even the regard for civilian casualties is a fairly modern phenomenon.

[Renault]

I like how Wong's satire of the modern warfare process has prompted a conversation on a literal game version of it.

[darkrider2]

"Control the media, Control the mind" ~ and for the life of me I cannot remember who said that.

But it's true enough.

Personally I think our military generals who make tough decisions, who have to weigh civilian casualties, I think they lose more sleep over that than anyone back home ever will. It really irks me when we blame soldiers or officers for the death accompanied by war.

What should always be questioned is the reason for that war, not the integrity of those fighting it.

PS: That sounded too good to be my writing... >_>

[Zrk2]

War sucks. No game can ever simulate that. /thread

I think I about covered it...

[Nikov]

Daikatana sucked pretty hardcore...

A lot of the carnage on the Eastern Front wasn't so much due to the Soviets throwing people into the meatgrinder so much as the troops themselves just having colossal babushka-sized balls and refusing to back down.

I beg to differ.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Supreme General Headquarters of the Red Army commands:

1. Military councils of the fronts and first of all front commanders should:

a) Unconditionally eliminate retreat moods in the troops and with a firm hand bar propaganda that we can and should retreat further east, and that such retreat will cause no harm;

b) Unconditionally remove from their posts and send to the High Command for court martial those army commanders who have allowed unauthorized troop withdrawals from occupied positions, without the order of the Front command.

c) Form within each Front from one up to three (depending on the situation) penal battalions (800 persons) where commanders and high commanders and appropriate commissars of all service arms who have been guilty of a breach of discipline due to cowardice or bewilderment will be sent, and put them on more difficult sectors of the front to give them an opportunity to redeem by blood their crimes against the Motherland.

2. Military councils of armies and first of all army commanders should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their offices corps and army commanders and commissars who have accepted troop withdrawals from occupied positions without the order of the army command, and route them to the military councils of the fronts for court martial;

b) Form within the limits of each army 3 to 5 well-armed defensive squads (up to 200 persons in each), and put them directly behind unstable divisions and require them in case of panic and scattered withdrawals of elements of the divisions to shoot in place panic-mongers and cowards and thus help the honest soldiers of the division execute their duty to the Motherland;

c) Form within the limits of each army up to ten (depending on the situation) penal companies (from 150 to 200 persons in each) where ordinary soldiers and low ranking commanders who have been guilty of a breach of dicipline due to cowardice or bewilderment will be routed, and put them at difficult sectors of the army to give them an opportunity to redeem by blood their crimes against the Motherland.

3. Commanders and commissars of corps and divisions should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their posts commanders and commissars of regiments and battalions who have accepted unwarranted withdrawal of their troops without the order of the corps or division commander, take from them their orders and medals and route them to military councils of fronts for court martial;

b) Render all help and support to the defensive squads of the army in their business of strengthening order and discipline in the units.

This order is to be read in all companies, cavalry squadrons, batteries, squadrons, commands and headquarters.

The national commissar for defense: J. Stalin.

[Aqizzar]

I'd like to point out, that's RedKing you're quoting, not me.

I know the Total War series has been mentioned, which I think is a pretty shitty example of "realistic" warfare, since the AI is stone cold retarded.  Sure, the troops have a sense of self-preservation, but their pathfinding and appraisal of their own strength shoots them in the foot all the time.  Maybe Empire will be a little different - I hear it's basically a game of who can stand more troops in front of the cannons, which I suppose is a pretty accurate assessment of set-piece 16th century warfare.

[Nikov]

How the hell did I manage that goof.

I found the TW games to be quite good. You just have to recognize troops stay where you put them on the assumption you put them there on purpose. ETW is particularly good with the right mod. I managed to win big in multiplayer by copying the Prussian oblique order of battle.

[Johnfalcon99977]

Maybe Empire will be a little different - I hear it's basically a game of who can stand more troops in front of the cannons, which I suppose is a pretty accurate assessment of set-piece 16th century warfare.

If you don't count cannons mericlessly pounding on your own infantry if they get to close, or even each other if, god forbid, the enemy goes to your side!

[Virex]

Maybe Empire will be a little different - I hear it's basically a game of who can stand more troops in front of the cannons, which I suppose is a pretty accurate assessment of set-piece 16th century warfare.

If you don't count cannons mericlessly pounding on your own infantry if they get to close, or even each other if, god forbid, the enemy goes to your side!

Are you talking about militia here or about real people?

[RedKing]

Daikatana sucked pretty hardcore...

A lot of the carnage on the Eastern Front wasn't so much due to the Soviets throwing people into the meatgrinder so much as the troops themselves just having colossal babushka-sized balls and refusing to back down.

I beg to differ.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Supreme General Headquarters of the Red Army commands:

1. Military councils of the fronts and first of all front commanders should:

a) Unconditionally eliminate retreat moods in the troops and with a firm hand bar propaganda that we can and should retreat further east, and that such retreat will cause no harm;

b) Unconditionally remove from their posts and send to the High Command for court martial those army commanders who have allowed unauthorized troop withdrawals from occupied positions, without the order of the Front command.

c) Form within each Front from one up to three (depending on the situation) penal battalions (800 persons) where commanders and high commanders and appropriate commissars of all service arms who have been guilty of a breach of discipline due to cowardice or bewilderment will be sent, and put them on more difficult sectors of the front to give them an opportunity to redeem by blood their crimes against the Motherland.

2. Military councils of armies and first of all army commanders should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their offices corps and army commanders and commissars who have accepted troop withdrawals from occupied positions without the order of the army command, and route them to the military councils of the fronts for court martial;

b) Form within the limits of each army 3 to 5 well-armed defensive squads (up to 200 persons in each), and put them directly behind unstable divisions and require them in case of panic and scattered withdrawals of elements of the divisions to shoot in place panic-mongers and cowards and thus help the honest soldiers of the division execute their duty to the Motherland;

c) Form within the limits of each army up to ten (depending on the situation) penal companies (from 150 to 200 persons in each) where ordinary soldiers and low ranking commanders who have been guilty of a breach of dicipline due to cowardice or bewilderment will be routed, and put them at difficult sectors of the army to give them an opportunity to redeem by blood their crimes against the Motherland.

3. Commanders and commissars of corps and divisions should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their posts commanders and commissars of regiments and battalions who have accepted unwarranted withdrawal of their troops without the order of the corps or division commander, take from them their orders and medals and route them to military councils of fronts for court martial;

b) Render all help and support to the defensive squads of the army in their business of strengthening order and discipline in the units.

This order is to be read in all companies, cavalry squadrons, batteries, squadrons, commands and headquarters.

The national commissar for defense: J. Stalin.

Yeah, apparently you missed:

And yes, the Soviets weren't necessary that cavalier. Stalin, on the other hand....

and

I'll starve or be shot if I flee

Doesn't change the fact that units like the 1077th Anti-Aircraft Regiment, equipped with nothing but outdated flak guns, stood their ground against an onslaught of Panzers until completely destroyed. I'd say balls of steel, except the 1077th was composed almost entirely of young women.

Let's also remember that the British Army shot their own troops for refusing to go over the top in WWI as well. Doesn't make the ones who did go any less brave.