Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 18

Author Topic: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?  (Read 23319 times)

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2011, 04:19:47 pm »

I didn't think so!
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2011, 04:22:51 pm »

Hey, Nikov found an excuse to leave the debate while maintaining the moral high ground in his head even earlier than usual.
Quote from: Washington Times
Real personal income for Americans - excluding government payouts such as Social Security - has fallen by 3.2 percent since President Obama took office in January 2009, according to the Commerce Department’s Bureau of Economic Analysis.

For comparison, real personal income during the first 15 months in office for President George W. Bush, who inherited a milder recession from his predecessor, dropped 0.4 percent. Income excluding government payouts increased 12.7 percent during Mr. Bush’s eight years in office.
So uh... this a source that comprehensively proves that the current massive financial crisis is causing people to lose money?
Logged

Sowelu

  • Bay Watcher
  • I am offishially a penguin.
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2011, 05:01:13 pm »

It's always fun to look at historic tax rates.  Wow, look how high the top bracket used to get during wars!  And just look at the way the top bracket has been dropping over time.  I need to find a chart that covers the last ten years, but still.

Yeah, people who say "Tax rates are SO HIGH these days" are incorrect.  They were slightly lower in the late 80s and very early 90s...until Clinton fixed them in '93, as someone mentioned earlier...but aside from that little dip, you know the last time they were that low?  The Great Depression.  Briefly.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 05:10:26 pm by Sowelu »
Logged
Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

Toady One

  • The Great
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bay12games.com
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2011, 05:03:01 pm »

There are too many personal attacks in this thread.  If you can't keep it together, don't post.
Logged
The Toad, a Natural Resource:  Preserve yours today!

Bauglir

  • Bay Watcher
  • Let us make Good
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2011, 05:10:13 pm »

-snip-
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 10:28:18 pm by Bauglir »
Logged
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2011, 05:19:09 pm »

I think the defense budget is of significant relevance here. The US spends about 6.7 times as much as China does on the military in absolute terms, and more than twice what they spend in terms of a percentage of GDP. These numbers are even more extreme if you compare them to other economically-developed first-world nations instead of China. Hell, in terms of absolute dollars, the US accounts for over 40% of the entire world's military expenditure, despite our financial problems. To put this in another terms, about 1/5 of the US federal budget is spent on defense. I personally find this a little ridiculous, and find that it has more than something to do with conservative policies, between Wacky Cold-War Hi-Jinks in the 80's and the more modern Iran/Afghanistan debacle, just for example (it's also do to a complete lack of oversight and corrupt contractual practices, leading to things costing several times as much to build as they actually should).
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Bouchart

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NO_WORK]
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2011, 05:50:06 pm »

We'll see what happens on June 30, when the Fed completes it's second run of Quantitative Easing.  The Fed is buying about 70% of newly issued Treasury debt so you could see a fiscal crisis then. regardless if budgets get passed in the interim.

Military spending accounts for about 20-25% of the federal budget.  Social security, Medicare and other transfer programs account for about 60% or so.
Logged

ed boy

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2011, 06:17:36 pm »

A couple of points which I think people need to keep in mind:
-The effect of government policies are not instantaneous. Policies can take a long time to come into effect, from months to years. Saying "X happened when Y was in power" is not necessarily a reflection on X.
-I've seen a lot of people make referece to "the average household" and the like. Not only are there five different averages that I know of (and three of them are means), but you can get wildly different results depending on which one you use.
Logged

Urist is dead tome

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2011, 07:06:04 pm »

In the near future, there are two sides fighting a war. This is not a war of guns and bullets. It's fought with cable news and congressman. This is capitalism.

            America: This Time, It's For The Money.

Logged

Taricus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2011, 07:06:54 pm »

With High explosives
Logged
Quote from: evictedSaint
We sided with the holocaust for a fucking +1 roll

Aqizzar

  • Bay Watcher
  • There is no 'U'.
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2011, 08:29:46 pm »

Oh goody, and ideological punch up.  Or not.  I'm not going to prattle about ideology, but I think this thread could use some more news articles.

It is a simple fact of math that a big part of why the federal state governments are in the hole like they never have been before is a huge drop in income over the past couple years.  When you budget is based on tax revenue, and then lots of people go out of work or wind up with reduced pay, obviously tax revenue falls.  Hence all the lip-service paid to "growing the economy", which makes perfect sense in that regard.  The Republican party campaigned on that point, and insists it's still priority number one.  The problem is, government money filtering its way through the economy keeps a lot of people employed, so when they plan to cut spending by $60ish billion, it's likely to put most of a million more people out of work, and that's just at first glance.  Note, that's analysis by Goldman Sachs, the people who make the money and no screaming lefties.  Massive budget reductions to social assistance programs, and theoretical cuts to social security and medi-etc are just icing on the cake, of putting a greater economic squeeze on millions of people already at the bleeding edge of their money.

Ah, but surely if "the American people" didn't want economic policy like this, they wouldn't have voted for dozens of new Congressmen aligned to the party-message promising such?  Yeah, turns out, most people are pretty reactionary, and frequently vote "against" what they actually believe you question them point by point.  Cue the extremely politically uncomfortable new poll from The Wall Street Journal and NBC.  (For the record, half of that name is owned by Rupert Murdoch, the other half by General Electric, who will be important later.)  It's hard to get a clear graphic of the result, and you can tab over to "Documents" to see the technical results yourself.  The highlights: 81% of people support raising taxes on millionaires, 75% are against reducing Social Security payments across the board.  And that's just for starters.  A lot of people are asking the obvious questions, about why a solid three-quarters of the country would espouse what are often regarded as thoroughly "liberal" ideas when a scant quarter identify themselves by such a label, are why Tea Partiers are hypocrites.  I've got my own theories, but that's not really the point.

The point is, it's simply not possible to reduce government spending below government income without thoroughly obliterating discretionary spending (which a good chunk of the economy depends on), along with chopping up sacred cows like Social Security, Medi-whatever, and the military.  Without being willing to do that, and I for one think it would be ridiculous anyway, the only realistic option is to look at government revenue.  Yeah, taxes, like the millionaire surcharge that 81% of the population supports.  Which isn't surprising, since 95% of people will never see a million dollars in their life.  And lest anyone think it's all deadbeat "liberals" saying the wealthiest of society should be asked to pay more, like everyone else has had to, it's a dirty little secret of liberalism that quite a few American tycoons call themselves such.  The not the quite the hypocrites everyone wants them to be.  The article makes a pretty good point - if the wealthiest 150,000 people in America, about 0.0005% of the population, were taxed at the effective rate top-income earners were under Eisenhower (the Republican Shangri-La), the government could expect to see an extra $280 billion dollars.  "Expect" being a key word, since our tax policy is thoroughly screwed up, which makes a nice segue.

The government is already effectively "loosing" tens or hundreds of billions a year from tax revenue not collected, mostly from the wealthiest individuals and corporations who can afford accountants and international-income shell games to keep the IRS from touching what they're making.  And naturally, part of that big Republican spending-reduction involves cutting the IRS's tax enforcement budget by about $600 million.  Enforcement aside, as long as I've raised the question of millionaire taxes, let's not leave out corporate taxes.  "But Aqizzar you Bolshevik, corporations are the foundation of the economy!  American taxes are already way too high; you want to plunge us off a cliff by talking about taxing big businesses!"  According to Forbes again, no screaming lefties by any means (hence why I've been linking them), roughly two-thirds of American corporations pay effectively no taxes, especially some of the biggest like General Electric (owners of previously mentioned "liberal media" like NBC).  The point being, all the economic recovery in the world isn't going to generate more revenue when you're taxing at zero percent, and it's kinda hard to further incentive business to operate in America when the crushing "tax burden" is zero percent.  Not that that doesn't stop us from trying of course, with "tax incentives" which is a fancy word for handing out free money, to already most-profitable industries in the world like ExxonMobile and Chevron to tune of $50billion a year.  Consider - Chevron employs less than 100,000 people in America, and has been steadily shedding a couple thousand jobs a year for the past decade.  No only is giving them billions in free money not keeping anyone employed, but just imagine how many other, more effective, ways that money could be spent.


The Republican party came into power promising $100billion in spending cuts; they've delivered a plan for $60billion, mostly on the backs people least able to afford a reduction in government spending, and meaningless culture-war grandstanding issues like PBS.  And not only is that considered a "settled matter" by the public echo chamber, but now we're going around trying to convince ourselves that Social Security is somehow losing money.  Meanwhile, a slight increase in tax burden on the wealthiest people in the country, cutting the completely ineffective corporate welfare being shoveled out the door, and straightening up tax enforcement and policy to collect what's already due could easily generate an extra $400 to $500 billion in revenue.  But even when a huge majority of American voters gladly support ideas like that when presented with them individually, somehow when you actually propose them as policy, everyone's hair catches on fire and they start quoting Red Dawn.  If I have a message in all this, it's pretty simple: America, get the fuck over yourselves and the feel-good rhetorical paranoia, and let's stop pretending that the only way to boost the economy and give the government a fighting chance at solvency is by squeezing the working poor and handing more money to already ludicrously rich.  And even after burying myself to the neck in this debate for the last ten years, I'm no closer to understanding why this is such a distasteful idea.

Actually, I've got a pretty good idea, but it's totally unrelated to the question of deficit reduction, so it doesn't belong here.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:35:21 pm by Aqizzar »
Logged
And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

Taricus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2011, 08:33:16 pm »

Actually, I've got a pretty good idea, but it's totally unrelated to the question of deficit reduction, so it doesn't belong here.

Sounds interesting, new thread maybe?
Logged
Quote from: evictedSaint
We sided with the holocaust for a fucking +1 roll

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2011, 08:38:46 pm »

Hey, Nikov found an excuse to leave the debate while maintaining the moral high ground in his head even earlier than usual.

Surprise!
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2011, 08:49:28 pm »

The point is, it's simply not possible to reduce government spending below government income without thoroughly obliterating discretionary spending (which a good chunk of the economy depends on), along with chopping up sacred cows like Social Security, Medi-whatever, and the military.  Without being willing to do that, and I for one think it would be ridiculous anyway

Question: Why would it be ridiculous to eliminate enough military waste (and unpopular wars/invasions/occupations) that our defense spending is on a somewhat reasonable level, especially when we can get more bang for our buck to begin with? We currently spend an absurd amount on the military and it isn't necessary. Even shaving 5 percentage points off what we currently spend is a very significant amount of cash.



Regarding corporations: One big problem here is that corporations are damn near extraterritorial, in practice at least. They exist transnationally. If you're a corporation, you can do things like: Build your factories where regulations are lax, put your call centers where labor is cheap, and sell where the people are rich. In effect, you don't have to give a damn about any one nation's laws or regulations, because you can pick and choose where different aspects of your operation are. You have to pay lip-service to some regulations of the country you're selling to, sure, but that's about it. This all also means that it's certainly quite easy to dodge taxes, as you effectively belong to no nation and can shuffle funds whichever way you like. For us, that means cheap goods (hooray!) with very little of that investment staying in our own country in the form of either money or jobs (boo!) and produced in far worse conditions and with far worse regulation than our own standards would allow for (huh!). Seriously, this is one reason why people complaining about globalization of government have to get their head in the game: We already have globalization of market and industry. If we don't globalize regulations to follow suit, then corporations effectively exist outside the law. From the point of view of our own country, a stopgap measure would be to not allow the import of goods produced at standards lower than our own, but I cannot see that actually being implemented and enforced successfully beyond a very, very limited fashion, and that still doesn't clear up any of the other issues. The only way that will be solved is by international regulations that exist on the same par as international trade and corporations do, and economic parity that is, in fact, being held back in the long term by corporations whose best interests lie in poor countries remaining poor (for cheap wages and production costs) compared to the rich countries who remain rich (to purchase product at relatively high prices).

A lot of that doesn't have to do with taxes or deficits, so sorry for the segue, but it's certainly relevant; we have a lot of money and jobs leaving the country because of this, and even ostensibly "American" corporations can barely be considered to fall under US jurisdiction or pay their taxes as such.
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Aqizzar

  • Bay Watcher
  • There is no 'U'.
    • View Profile
Re: Government Shutdown... TV says it's bad. Is it?
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2011, 09:05:30 pm »

I'm pretty sure most of what you just mentioned is already in the law, it's just barely-if-ever enforced.  It's not legal for Chinese toothpaste to contain formaldehyde, it's just that regulation and inspection just isn't there.

And yeah, I'm totally for cutting varieties of military spending, but that in itself is not enough without genuinely crippling one of the most internationally-vital arms of the government, which was my point.  It's worth noting that our nuclear arsenal, which is big enough to obliterate the world a couple time over and is still being expanded, isn't actually paid-for through the military, it's considered the budgetary jurisdiction of the Energy Department.
Logged
And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 18